Ian Ferguson, VP of Sales and Marketing at Lynx Software Technologies, sat down for our latest podcast episode in the B2B marketing professionals’ series.

Ian discusses his career in the B2B technology industry and shares his opinions on the importance of having technical knowledge when marketing such products. He also shares his insights into how the need to shorten sales cycles is impacting the balance between sales and marketing, the importance of saying no when prioritising marketing activities and how course-correcting campaigns based on ongoing metrics allows you to optimise their success.

Listen to the podcast now via the links below:

Transcript: Interview with Ian Ferguson – Lynx

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Ian Ferguson

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to marketing B2B technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I’m joined by Ian Ferguson. Ian is Vice President of Sales and Marketing for Lynx. Welcome to the podcast Ian.

Ian: Hello.

Mike: Great to have you on the podcast. So, you’ve had quite an interesting career in marketing, particularly in B2B Tech. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure,

Ian: I guess I graduated in the 80s with a electronic engineering degree realised that I was a pretty terrible hardware designer. And in addition to not being very good at it, I felt like I was more passionate about how the technology was being used, as opposed to sitting in front of a workstation and creating it. So I, I then started to look around early 90s. And you know, back in those days, there were like two tech companies that were really great proving grounds to sort of like you learn the trade of marketing, that was Motorola, semiconductor. And TI and I went to Motorola semiconductor and started to work on the journey there, I was always passionate about being the underdog. That’s part of my UK upbringing. So I was always wanting to be, even in big companies, I always pick the technology that was the, the underdog and then try to go off and, and beat the big guys. So at Motorola semiconductor, it was after the, you know, trying to take out Intel, when I was at arm, it was trying to push arm technology into the service space. That’s always been my passion as the small guy. And, you know, building that sort of puffer fish strategy where you make yourself look bigger than you actually are. And then tried to take on the big guy and make a meaningful difference in the industry.

Mike: Cool. So now your at Lynx. So tell us a little bit about what Lynx does.

Ian: So we’re a software company, we’ve been around since 1988. And our main focus is software that keeps humans safe and secure. So in aircrafts, in helicopters, and increasingly autonomous platforms, so this is the software that has to work all the time in a deterministic way. So you know, you hit a break in in a car, you want that break to happen pretty quickly, as opposed to waiting for an operating system to reboot. If you’re flying a plane and you’re doing manoeuvres, in a in a military formation, those manoeuvres have got to happen, right there that right, then our software does that. And you know, you then have to prove to the various authorities that your software certified to do those things, no matter what else is going on in the plane, the drone, the car, the armoured vehicle, or the helicopter.

Mike: Interesting. So, you know, you’ve obviously said you’ve got a technical background, how important do you think it is to be technical to market some of these products? Do you think non technical people can do it as well?

Ian: Yeah, I think so. I think you’ve just got to have that curiosity about what’s going on and keep poking with the why question. And you know, I think the other piece that’s, you know, we’ve, you know, certainly very regularly for me, over the last two and a half years is sort of like holding up your hand in saying, Can you help me out? And I don’t know that. So as long as you’re willing to sort of like admit to your, your endpoint. And I’m curious to keep probing around with the right sorts of questions in I think the field is open to all.

Mike: Cool, that sounds good. So we obviously talked a bit about your background, obviously, being mainly client side, what why is it you haven’t gotten to work in an agency? Is that personal choice?

Ian:  Yeah, I guess the first bit is, you’ve never offered me a job, right? You never call you never right. But I think more seriously, I’m quite proud of the fact that I’m a jack of all trades, master of none. And I actually like that ability to bounce around different bits of marketing, whether it’s going off and engaging with customers, whether that’s digital marketing, to grow the funnel at the other end, whatever it might be across that, that spectrum. So I like dipping into a lot of different things. And with the tech that I’ve been in, nothing gets deployed quickly. And, and for me, I just like to be there for that full length of the journey, sort of talking to people about why the technology is good for a particular application. Seeing it get designed in and seeing it get deployed for X years. I just like being there for that long, long journey. And I want to be able to hold up my hand and say if it was wrong, it was my fault. And and if it was a good idea, it was it was down to me. So that ownership of it from cradle to grave.

Mike: Yeah, I think I should correct you. I’ve never been able to afford you. It’s not that I haven’t been able to offer you a job.

Ian: Oh, I’m pretty cheap.

Mike: That sounds good. I mean, you talked about being a jack of all trades. And obviously anyone with a VP of sales and marketing roles got a very broad role. So I mean, how do you go about that? I mean priorities in that role.

Ian: Yeah, so I guess a bit of background, we we were acquired in June of 2022. So we were a very small company before that 45 people. And I think like any classic small company, very focused on the quarter, and sometimes on the month to make sure we had cashflow, and we had the right sort of deal pipeline coming on. So you know, there were certain points of you know, that life where it was probably 105% of my time was sales, right, particularly towards the end of a quarter to hit hit meaningful numbers. So, you know, I think where we are now, it’s really, we’re able to sort of step back and really look at what are the big things that need to be done. I’m a simple guys, as you know, from talking to me over the years, so I think of rocks, pebbles and sand. And so you know, if you’re going to fill a jar, the first thing you have to do is put in the rocks, then you have to do the pebbles, and then you need to do the sands. So I really look at you know, the move the dial activities on sales and marketing and try and prioritise those, and they’ll inevitably be some days where it’s 9010. And some days, it’s going to be 1090, just depending on where we are on a campaign or closable customer deal. But I rather than it being a sales versus marketing, I just tried to look at it on that sort of rocks, Pebble sand kind of mentality?

Mike: And how do you go about like really deciding what’s going to move the needle, I mean, because obviously, both marketing and sales, there’s quite a bit of uncertainty as to whether an activity will come off and result in a sale. So how’d you pick those rocks? That’s what I’m really interested in?

Ian: Yeah, so I think, you know, what we’re trying to do is, so where do we want to be X years out? And it’s not revenue? Really, it’s what do we want to be known for? What’s our brand? What are the sorts of use cases? Are people really excited about our technology? So, you know, when I’m looking at rocks, pebbles and sand, I’m trying to hold up to that aspiration of where we want to be X years out and saying, Does this thing, move that needle in a really big way? Or does it sort of help nudge us in a little bit of that direction? And I think, you know, one of the things that I’m still trying to do a better job at is to say, No, I think as a small company, typically, you say yes to a lot of stuff, because it’s like, oh, because I’m going to do all of these things, because it might end up in a lead, and it might end up in a little bit of dollars. And so that’s good. I think, you know, me trying to actually do more on less things. I think that’s also sort of the platform that we’re trying to work on. So really trying to be okay with saying no to some of that, just activity without really a good use case behind it. And I think, you know, the other thing about marketing now is that it’s, yes, there is still some fluffy stuff, and trying to predict where you’re gonna go is hard. But there’s some great metrics now that you can have, right? And so you don’t have to pick a decision and be solid with it for three years, you can say, I’m going to do something with my website, or I’m going to do something with my email campaign. And you can say, after two weeks, okay, that was pretty underwhelming, we’re gonna have to course correct, right. So so I think being being you know, holding up that mirror to, you know, where do you really want to be X years out? And then secondly, course correcting, not keeping your head in the sand and say, you know, what we tried that thing didn’t work out, we’ll do something else.

Mike: So that seems to be a real combination between long term strategy, and then also making fairly quick decisions based upon the feedback you get from some of the metrics.

Ian: Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Mike: Cool. One of the things that really interests me is that, you know, recently has been a lot of studies that show that the pandemic particularly has meant that people are less willing to talk to salespeople and spend more time researching, so therefore accessing marketing content. I mean, is that something you’ve seen? And how’s that impacted the way you balance marketing and sales?

Ian: Yeah, so I think it’s absolutely something we see in the space. And and I think there’s a few aspects. Yeah, I’m not sure whether COVID is really a big driver for us on that. I think, in our industry, people are having to shorten their cycles, because the old way of designing aircraft and plane and helicopters and automotive systems was like, well, we’ll take X years over it, then we’ll go into a testing phase, and then we’re going to go off and do our certification. And, you know, you’d have these things where people were designing for seven years out, right, and, you know, the one thing I can guarantee is that if you try to predict the future outs in seven years, you’re going to be wrong. And not only that, you’ve now got these eruptions going on. If you look at what Tesla did inside vehicles, if you look at now, in aircrafts, you’ve got these evito, which is the electric vehicle, takeoff and landing so they can take off vertically. And they’re brand new companies coming into the spaces. And so your traditional Boeing’s, and Collins’s and latkes are now being challenged, not just in this country and in the allies, but in China, right. And I think across a number of industries, and this is a little bit more of a controversial topic, people are going away from perfection, and and wanting to go with good enough and learn and say, Okay, well, we’re going to put this rocket up. And we’re going to do this and we’ll will course correct. And so that overall, I’m going to not wait for perfect data, I’m going to go off and create specifications. And then I’m going to say, this is our spec. And we’re going to bring in a couple of people that we think meet that specification, and we’re going to go with those down a path of making a decision on there. So, so long winded way, come back to your question.

So you know, what do you have to do as a marketing person you’ve you’ve got to get in earlier into those cycles, it can’t be by banging on the door. And as I said, I think COVID is only a piece of it. And in our segment, people are back in the office, because if you’re working on Department of Defence source code, you probably can’t do that from Starbucks or in the house. So some people are back. And they’re still not having a lot of face to face meetings. So I think the bigger factor for us is that collapsing of decision cycles, they’re doing work themselves and with valuable partners. And for marketing, you have to be getting involved earlier in defining how those specifications are coming out. One of the things that was great about working at arm and there was a lot of great things that were great about working out, one of the things that they did was they talk to their customers customer and to their customers, customers, customers. So arm doesn’t make chips. So their customers would be chip companies. But they were talking to Microsoft’s Azure, they were talking to Volkswagen, they were talking to T Mobile. And so that understanding of the specifications and actually influencing specifications, further down the value chain, meant that they were in much better shape to actually go off and address these RFPs and RFQs, when they came out from the customer base. And there’s a science to it, you got to be very careful about how you reach down those channels. But that’s sort of part of our path on how we address these things is trying to get further down to beyond our customers to try and influence those specifications and get those people really understanding the value of what we do to be part of that small club that gets invited into the party.

Mike: That’s interesting. And it sounds like what you’ve got to do is generate a lot of content for people to read in that early stage, or to interact in is it really all about content?

Ian: It’s about content. And you’ve really got to understand in each of those stages down the value chain, who you’re actually targeting, right? So we just changed our CEO, our previous CEO wanted to retire. And the new CEO was talking about a an all hands couple of weeks ago. And he said your CEO of Lockheed Martin is probably not lying awake at night worrying about his artistic choice, right? He’s probably not worrying about some low level software. He’s worrying about problems like hiring enough people on on into their software teams because Lockheed is competing with Apple, Google, you know, cybersecurity for banks. So how does he How does he go off and hire people? How does he deliver planes that have the right capability for the US Air Force that allows them to be superior in the air over China, he’s worrying about those things, as opposed to the artists choice. So I think, especially one of the things that I think Tech has generally been quite poor at and when I first joined, our website looked like a Product Selector guide. And you really have to get away from that to try and understand truly what those people will be worrying about. And as you go further down that value chain, it varies. So we go off to chief architects because their badges on the line, if that system isn’t safe and secure, bad things happen, right? But further down the value chain, those people are much more worried about the economics risk management of programmes into operability of that platform with other systems. So it is all about content, but it very much varies. And you have to be spot on with who you’re targeting. And it might also vary as you go further down the value chain. It describes the sort of way that we’re trying to do it.

Mike: So do you have a process for for developing a content strategy or how do you approach that?

Ian: Yeah, so I think it this is an area where it’s pretty it’s a Tiv will listen to what’s being talked about in forums will talk to a customer. And you know, when there’s material there that’s in the public domain, we’ll, we’ll look at how we use that. And then we also use the metrics again, right? So, you know, if people aren’t clicking on blogs, or going to a website, and they’re getting bored after 15 seconds that says, We’re either attracting the wrong people, or what we’re putting there is not right. So one very specific example, you know, two weeks ago, there was four or five hours of the head of the US Air Force, the secretary for the Air Force, the head of the Army, you know, talking about their their challenges in our sector, about the pace of China and the US. You can argue whether it’s right or wrong, but statement of fact is their number one enemy right now is China. And so that level of clarity of thought is driving all of Frank Marshalls activities in there. And then he outlined what his areas of focus were around that like hypersonics, and some of these other unmanned uncrewed. Craft. And so, you know, that’s that top picture, we go off, and okay, so how do we then fit into those areas, we start to test that content with some of the people that are in our ecosystem, we start to post it on our website, do a B types of comparisons on a week by week basis and see, see how we’re doing and then just do a fast iteration. I’ll tell you the stuff we put in the first week after the thing. Not great. The second week was better, right. And you know, that’s why marketing great is so exciting, right? Now you can, you can really rip and replace and learn. I came from the hardware industry where if you make a chip decision, you probably find that out in 18 months, you can find out on marketing where your content is landing, and whether you’re in the right place within hours or days. And I think don’t stick your head in the sand, get your head up and confront reality and then do something about it will be my message.

Mike: Interesting and a lot of testing on the website. But presuming there’s other channels you use that are effective? I mean, what are the channels really work for you?

Ian: Yeah, so our industry is still quite conventional. So there’s still trade show events. And we’ve tended to find that one of the most overused words at the moment is IoT, right? The Internet of Things, you know, you get these general purpose IoT shows from for connected cooker to underwater basket weaving machine, right, we found that we failed in those areas. So we’ve tended to try and seek out very specific events. And that might be events that the army are holding, there’s an event in Poland in October called Global defence helicopter, there is no mistaking where that focus is of that event. So we’re very excited about that event, the US Army are looking to do some things to proliferate some technology more broadly across the allies. We’re part of that activity with the US Army. So we’re trying to be smarter about where we pick those more, let’s say niche, or niche, I’m bilingual now living in the US. So I tradeshows is still probably Third on our list. Our biggest our biggest hit for leads is SEO and paid search. And we spend a lot of time focusing on keywords, and then prioritising where we put our AdWords spends. And in our space, there’s a lot of our customers that actually block Google at the firewall. So we do work with Google and with Bing, just to try and target the audience’s but that’s, that’s our number one activity, even in accounts, where we already have designs, that such big organisations, you know, a few 100,000 people here, a few 100,000 people there, there’s no connection, really about the tech inside those companies, we still see, you know, Lockheed Martin, and Raytheon leads that come in to us. And I’ll say one other thing that’s really surprised me because our industry is thought of being quite elderly people that have been a system engineer for 30 years or whatever. We have a chat function on our website. And when I came in two and a half years ago, I was like, why do we do that? I get, you know, ask Erica, if I’m going to Bank of America, I get that. But maybe again, as part of what you were saying about less, less customer meetings and more of an immediacy of, of data, big companies are asking us questions, you’re always going to get stupid people that post stuff on the chat function, fine. But actually, some people are wanting to engage that way as their first interaction. And rather than going through the whole websites, like hey, I’ve got a question. You know, I’ve been pointed to you by a Google search query, or whatever it might be. Tell me about blah. And so we’ve actually seen an uptick in the number of people that are using the chat function as opposed to leaving there and it might also be just the They then don’t have to give full like, they don’t have to give out so much personal information, we actually don’t collect much. We just want an email address and a name. But you know, a lot of other people ask for inside leg measurements and where you go to your tailor. And, and so the chat function might be just partly immediacy, and partly not needing to fill in all that data. But we’ve surprisingly found that people want to engage with us more that way.

Mike: That’s really interesting, actually, because I’ve just been talking to another client about putting chat on their website, I mean, presumably, you’re doing chat with a real person, rather than trying to get a chatbot working.

Ian: We are a small company. So the chat function is supported by me. So and, you know, and other people in my team, so yeah, we haven’t bothered with any of the chat bots stuff. We aren’t Bank of America, or Lloyds Bank or Nationwide Building Society, we’re dealing with a few people with very specific queries about how to use Have you certified this piece of software on an Intel platform to fly in an aircraft. So we managed with with humans, we’ve got no intent to move to AI bots or anything like that. But that’s more about where we are in our journey and a 25 ish million revenue company as opposed to a few billion.

Mike: Yeah, I think it’s still hard in tech, though, to to get enough data to train an AI or even to build a set of questions for a chat bot, because, you know, engineers coming on they are such specific things.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. And again, know your audience, right, ai, ai has come on leaps and bounds. But for us, it’s all about credibility with those key people. And when an engineer comes on, yeah, you don’t want to just give them some rubbish, you want to give them a decent answer. And several times if it’s beyond my depth, which, like I talked about earlier, doesn’t take too much. Yeah, it’s like, I’ll get back to you, right, and you give me your email address? I’ll get you an answer. By the end of the day, I get them in the answer. But by the end of the day, and you start to build trust from there.

Mike: I think that’s great advice, building trust. One thing, you know, I’m interested in we talked just before the interview about press releases, I mean, how important is the media still for you? And how do you approach that relationship with journalists?

Ian: They’re massively important for us a you have to think about it as a relationship between you and and that press journalist so not something that something that transcends what’s on your business card today. I’m, I’ve talked to rich NAS for 25 years, I’ve talked to people at VDC for you know, 1520 years, I talked to Patrick Moorhead at more insights for, you know, 10 or 20 years. And, and that’s been across different areas of business and tech. And I think it’s, it’s really, you know, getting to that level of a conversation where if they can, if they have a topic, and it’s like, okay, something’s going on with Blockchain I’ll I’ll call in or if there’s something going on with, you know, a challenge with Ukraine, I’ll I’ll call Tim Reid, our CEO, it’s about really not about pushing product there. These days, it’s about sort of trying to, again, share some of your knowledge and wisdom about what you’re getting out of customers, because we’re going to be closer to customers than they are. So delivering value there and really thinking it not in terms of press hits, and clippings, and that but really is trusted relationship for decades. And I think if you go in with that approach, that’s what’s worked for me. It’s not about did they cover a press release of a product widget with these speeds and feeds. It’s more about when they’re when they’re in a pinch, and they want some opinions on things? Who do they call, I view it on that as opposed to column inches on a product release.

Mike: I think that’s great advice. Love that. Just maybe we talked about like media relations, we’ve talked about some of the other challenges, particularly your website. I mean, I’m just interested to know what you think makes a really good campaign and perhaps some examples of where you’ve run campaigns that have been really effective.

Ian: I think simplicity is one of the elements. You know, one of the If I think back, you know, I moved from the UK to California in 1999. And always love the dogs for life, not just for Christmas kind of campaign, right. And for those in the US group, because it hasn’t really run here. The idea is that people get a puppy at Christmas is all exciting. And then you know, all of these kennels and rescue places get filled the week after Christmas with these unwanted dog. The reason why I use it is it’s just such a powerful thing. I can then convey things around IoT, right, these platforms that get deployed, it’s not just for a couple of minutes, it’s for 20 years. And so you’ve got to think about a platform in tech for the useful life of a platform and that means being able to do software updates and making sure it doesn’t get hacked and do bad things and, and so just that a dog is for life is ridiculous. It’s just Very exciting. It was an easy conveying of the message. And I think the other bit for me is just something that pulls up the emotional strings at arm. As I mentioned earlier, I was always excited about how technology could get us, there was this, there was a guy who was farming nuts in, in Garner, right, and this guy had farmed nuts. And he’d been taught by his dad, he’d been taught by his grandfather had been taught by his great grandfather, a way to farm these ground nuts. And pick that period of time, right? 120 years, whatever he was getting his yields or whatever. And there’s actually a lot more best practices now known about how to farm these nuts.

And so there was this company in out of Oxford, just close to Oxford University spin out, the creative the Talking Book. And the idea there was that this, this technology, which are very, very simple technology could just actually bring best practices and knowledge is to some of the most far flung, not internet connected areas of the world. And this This was like maternity advice. It was like just general healthcare advice. And for this farmer in Garner, it created a 25% uplift in yield. And he was, it was a fantastic story. He was pretty cynical guy. And so he did a side by side compare, right. So he did one, one field he did with the Talking Book, and one field he did with the passed down information. And the 25% uplift was the difference between living his life, right sustenance, just enough to feed the family 25% gave him some ability to actually go off and start selling stuff and improving things and suddenly give some other information back to the community. And it was just such a compelling and exciting story. We started to then go from there is like it will help what other talking book stories are out there, right. And we created something with UNICEF that was really technology for good. And just my I believe that the people that are closest to the problems, or the best one to solve those problems, right? So you’re, you’re a school child in India, and you’ve got no electricity when you get home, how do you do your homework, when you get home, this school child came up with an idea that as she was walking, it was charging a battery that could then actually charged a light. So we launched this campaign that was really focused on Hey, you don’t have to understand the tech, you just have to have an idea for solving a local problem. And we got immunisation rights up in certain areas of India, because there was an RFID tag woven into a local bracelet. So it didn’t look like just the ugly old piece of tech. And that gave immunisation rates so they can see who was what villages were immunising, at the right levels, where were they behind, so needed more training? So you know, that’s just one example. But if I come back to the core point, something that actually I think creates emotion, right. And again, we come back to speeds and feeds and I look at my two gigahertz laptop, and yeah, you can crank out your work a little bit faster. Yeah.

For me, it’s much more about generating some of those emotive feelings, like back to my dog, or back to a, you know, a lady in India who has used tech, so she can actually go off and do homework at home where otherwise, she wouldn’t have been able to do it. And that makes the difference between her getting to college, and just a rinse and repeat of her mother’s role instead. So that’s my thoughts. What do you think?

Mike: I love the simplicity idea. I think it’s, it’s true, I think the dog is for life, not just for Christmas, very interesting, because everybody in the UK knows that. Not everybody knows who the organisation actually created it, which is one of those interesting things. And quite often the organisation that created it never gets credit for it. But it is such a powerful. I mean, it’s part of everyday language and in the UK, and it’s nothing complicated or involved or technical. It’s just a simple concept.

Ian: It’s a good point, because I think you raise a really good point because there’s a number of adverts we would say in the UK or commercials, as we’d say over here, where people remember, remember the theme, but they don’t actually then associate the brand with the resulting thing. And so, you know, I think some people I’ve made this mistake to over the years, I think we get so excited about that overall message of what we’re trying to do, we then sometimes forget to actually properly apply and attach our company brand to that. So people remember the dog or they remember, you know, the the kids cycling down the steep hill to go get bread, right, and then they’ve forgotten some of the other bits. So I think that is an important add on that in addition to once you’ve done all that hard work and getting people to remember that sort of emotive see mean, you’ve then got to make sure you stamp your your tech onto that to be brought along for the ride?

Mike: Definitely. I think it’s great. I mean, I love this enthusiasm. I just wonder what you’d say to a young person starting out in their career, if they’re thinking about marketing, what should they do?

Ian: Think about three things. So firstly, and this, I don’t know whether we could do a web link, or just people could look it up. I’m a big believer in this. This is like, Grandfather Ferguson speaking here. So I’m a big fan of this Japanese concept called iki. Guy, I K I G AI. And it’s basically a the intersection of what are you good at? What can you get paid for? What are you passionate about? And what does the world need? And I think for all of the stuff that goes on in the world, and you’re gonna get involved as in a job, and you do all of the nitty gritty, I found that a very powerful tool to say, you know, where am I on those four things, right? Because if I’m doing stuff, and I’m really passionate about it, but I can’t get paid, then I’m still going to get some level of angst there. So I think always trying to pull yourself into the middle of those four circles. And if people are interested, I could provide a link and people can contact me or you know, Link, there’s stuff on medium there’s stuff on Forbes, there’s a few places if you go do a search there so I think the big picture of getting out of work, I would say good luck that I think the second one is a jack of all trades is okay. You know, I think some people I’ve seen go specialise in certain areas. And I think change is happening so quickly at the moment that I’m a fan of jack of all trades I’m quite comfortable of not been deep enough technical to talk about multi core certification I’m quite comfortable about not being able to talk about how an ECU in a car operates. Right and but I know enough to be dangerous. And so I’m I want to bring back Jack of all trades as opposed to specialisation. And I think the third one is, I don’t believe you can improve anything without measuring it. So the first step is you got to measure stuff in order to improve and that might be your running outside work. It might be your it might be your digital campaigns. So you’ve got to be very careful about what you decide to measure because then otherwise, you can go off down some weird routes, but you know, go off and embrace data, learn and adapt. That will be my third.

Mike: Sounds like great advice. I’m sure people would have lots of questions for all of these topics you brought up if people want more information, how can I get in contact with you?

Ian: LinkedIn is probably the best way might just hunt me down.

Mike: So Ian at Lynx is the easy search. Thank you so much for for your time, and I really appreciate it. Thanks very much for being on the podcast.

Ian: Absolute pleasure. Thanks for inviting me, Mike. It’s always a pleasure talking to you.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.