The GEO Goldrush – How Generative AI Is Changing Brand Visibility – Leah Nurik – Brandi
As people move away from traditional search engines and turn to AI tools for answers, Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO of Brandi.ai, joins host Mike Maynard to explore how this change is transforming the way brands build visibility.
Leah shares how her background in tech and agency leadership led to the creation of Brandi, a platform that helps companies influence how AI engines like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude understand and present their brands.
She explains why Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) is emerging as the new SEO, how brands can take control of their visibility in AI-driven search, and what it takes to stay relevant as the rules of digital discovery evolve.
Leah also discusses the human side of marketing in the AI era, and why critical thinking, creativity, and authenticity still matter as much as data and algorithms.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Brandi
Brandi is the first intelligence-driven platform built on Generative Engine Optimization for brand visibility. It helps improve brand presence in AI-generated answers from engines like ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, and Perplexity. In today’s landscape—where brand discovery increasingly happens through generative AI—Brandi provides the insights and tools to help your company earn recognition as a trusted answer.
About Leah Nurik
Leah Nurik is CEO and Co-Founder of Brandi. Leah has worked with over 400 growth-stage software companies in her 20-plus year career. She’s held senior strategy, product, and marketing leadership positions at Motorola, Symbol Technologies, Infowave, and others. She also founded and led Gabriel Marketing Group, an award-winning global public relations, branding, and integrated marketing agency focused on B2B SaaS companies. Leah’s expertise spans digital, public relations, content marketing, product marketing, and go-to-market strategy.
Time Stamps
00:00:17 – Guest Introduction: Leah Nurik
00:02:07 – Jumping from agency leadership to developing Brandi
00:03:19 – What is GEO
00:09:13 – How can brands use Brandi to boost AI visibility
00:15:45 – What markets does Brandi support
00:16:38 – What is Brandi’s go-to-market strategy
00:18:34 – The future of AI search
00:23:52 – Best Marketing Advice Received by Andy
00:24:22 – Advice for New Marketers
00:26:07 – Contact details and Brandi demos
Quotes
“The paradigm of internet search is completely shifting. If you’re not on the train, you’re not leaving the station.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
“Generative AI search will overtake traditional search. Ignoring it is like buying a horse when everyone else is driving a car.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
“AI can get you about 85% of the way there, but you still need that human overlay to make the content authentic and mission-driven.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
“The marketers who will thrive in the age of AI are the ones who can think critically, solve complex problems, and bring human creativity to technology.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
“Brandi allows you not just to measure and monitor your brand’s performance, but also to influence how AI defines your market and how you’re represented in those conversations.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
“Our codified intelligence engine is what sets Brandi apart. It decodes customer pain points, listens to market conversations, and delivers real, directional advice marketers can act on.” Leah Nurik, Co-Founder and CEO at Brandi.
Follow Leah:
Leah Nurik on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahgabriel/
Brandi’s website: https://mybrandi.ai/
Brandi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mybrandi/
Brandi on X: https://x.com/mybrandi_ai
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
A Napier Webinar: How to Change Your Marketing for the Rest of the Year
Register for Napier's webinar and learn the simple steps that will boost performance to ensure you hit your marketing goals for 2025. Learn how to:
- Discover your winning content
- Better understand your personas
- Laser-target your paid media
- Spend money where you get results
- Build a plan to ensure you hit your KPIs
Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.
Napier Webinar: ‘How to Change Your Marketing for the Rest of the Year’ Transcript
Speakers: Mike Maynard
Welcome to our latest Napier webinar. I'm just going to give it another 30 seconds or a minute or so, and then we'll get started. So if you just want to hang on in there and I can see there's another couple of people joining, so we'll wait until they join and then get going.
Right? Well, thanks so much for joining. This webinar is kind of a little bit different. So in most of our webinars, we kind of dig fairly deep into particular topics. What we're going to do in this is we're really going to try and produce some ideas that hopefully you can take away two or three of them and use them to give your marketing a boost for the rest of the year. Obviously, what we're doing at this time of year is that we're coming back from holiday, and we look and we see that we've got to hit some annual KPIs, and it would be great to be able to, you know, make sure that we hit our KPIs this year, and also get ourselves in a situation where, if we don't modify KPIs this year, then certainly we look towards next year and try and make ourselves better objectives.
Now we're not going to talk specifically about that, but we're going to talk about overcoming the problem that I think a lot of people face at the moment, and that's, you know, we've all had a great summer holiday. Hopefully you've all had a great summer holiday, but you come back and you realize that now we have less than four months to deliver our goals by the end of the calendar year. And actually, if you take into account Christmas, and I know there's a few people on the webinar that are from the States, then you've got Thanksgiving as well. So I mean, this is really meaning we've perhaps got three months of actual time to really deliver on the KPIs. So there's only a little amount of time, and potentially you're looking at them and thinking, yeah, the summer quarter was slow, and certainly in many places, we've seen clients struggle a little bit with the economy in the Solomon quarter.
And so it's really important to come back and boost. So what we're going to do is we're going to present some ideas in this webinar as to how you can really kick start your marketing again and make sure you deliver on the KPIs. Now, obviously, if you've got any questions, I'd love to hear them. Please do feel free to put the questions. There's a Q and A section, or you can put them into the chat, and you're more than welcome to do that during the webinar as questions pop up, and then I will cover them all at the end of the webinar.
So we've got three months to do stuff. What are we going to do? Well, there's three key areas I think that we need to look at. The one is the one is the plans to hit your goals. So it's really about making sure that where we've been set KPIs, we're going to deliver on them. And I'm sure some of you are actually measured on achieving marketing KPIs, and so the goal is to deliver on them. Hopefully you've been tracking them all year. If not, now's the time to look, but certainly, let's make sure we keep the boss happy.
The second thing is, let's look to create better objectives, better KPIs for next year. You know, I think all too often, when we set KPIs, we look at what's done last year, and we try to do a little bit more or a little bit better. And that's not always a great way to do things. So if we can start looking at our KPIs, maybe we can lay the foundations for 2026, to be a much more effective year, where we're delivering results that really make an impact.
And then lastly, people, processes and systems. You know, this is about dealing with those inefficiencies that inevitably exist. I mean, it's something we're actually doing a lot of at Napier at the moment is, you know, looking where we're inefficient, where maybe we're doing things manually and they could be automated. And, you know, interestingly, although AI is obviously the big topic, and I can't get through a webinar without saying AI, actually, you know, standard automation is often all you need to actually save a lot of time. So can you free up some time so your people can then focus on delivering the KPIs rather than running admin tasks.
So let's have a look at what we're going to do before we dive into these three sections, which we'll dive into one after another. So I'm going to deal with the first thing. You might not have been looking at your KPIs. So before we do anything else, check in on your KPIs.
Look at where you are behind on KPIs. So are there KPIs where you haven't focused? How are you performing against benchmarks? Maybe you set a KPI at the start of the year, and then, actually, if you look at what's real, then you're looking and saying, actually, that's not realistic to achieve that. We had a client fairly recently, for example, that asked to set a KPI on click through rate for a campaign on LinkedIn, and the KPI they wanted was actually more than 10 times the average CTR on LinkedIn for their industry. So that's obviously unrealistic. And what we did was we broke it down and worked out how we could achieve their ultimate goal with a lower and more realistic KPI. We still are aiming above the industry benchmark, but I think that's the way of the world today.
You've got to look and see if the KPI is the right ones. Are they targeting what's going to really move the needle for your business? And I would say, and this is always difficult, but I would say, if you feel a KPI is wrong, now's the time to go to your boss and say, look, we're trying to hit this. It's just not the right thing to do. Sometimes you're going to get a no. But I think that in most organizations, if you realize that you're aiming in the wrong direction, having a course correct is seen as a good thing and not a bad thing.
The other thing to do is read your marketing plan. And this is interesting. Most people, I hope, on the call, are writing written marketing plans that outline what they're trying to achieve and the strategy that they're going to use to achieve them. And typically, these marketing plans get written and they don't get read again. And I'm sure somebody on the webinar is going to be thinking, yeah, but I've seen that research, and the research says that just writing a marketing plan, if you never read it again, actually gives you better results. That's true, but if you read it during the year, you actually get even more results, incrementally better results.
And the one thing I find is when I get people to read marketing plans, whether it's for the agency or whether it's within one of our clients, it's really interesting, because they come back and go, wow, I had some really good ideas that started the year, and this was really brilliant. I'd forgotten about it. So there's a really good chance checking in with your marketing plan is going to give you some good ideas that's going to help you boost your marketing. So those are the two basic things. I'd say they sound obvious, but you'd be amazed how many people never look at their marketing plan until they begin to draft the marketing plan for next year.
Let's now have a look at each of the sections. Now I'm going to go through this is going to be relatively quick fire. So it's really trying to throw out some ideas that are hopefully going to help you get a boost to what's going on with your marketing campaigns. So let's look at hitting goals. So let's assume we've come back and we've seen we're behind on some KPIs. How are we going to get back on track? Well, the answer is, you haven't got a lot of time, so I say realistically, about three months in terms of work time. So let's aim at what's going to be the easy wins.
The first thing is to actually level up your existing content. And the easiest thing to do is to look at what content is winning, what content is generating results, and then repurpose it. So take your content, work out what's best, and then repurpose it. Maybe, you know, put it in a different format, use it across different channels, but really double down on the content that wins.
You can also look at content that's good. So what we're seeing a lot of people, for example, that are driven by website traffic. There has been a big drop in the amount of referred website traffic from Google for a bunch of industries, and that's driven by AI. So maybe looking at getting a generative engine optimization strategy in place and optimizing your content to appear in the AI answers, that might be a really good thing to do, and it could well be something you didn't think was a priority at the start of the year. And finally, you might have some content that worked in the past and stopped working because it's become out of date. So look at going and updating some of that outdated content. So this is all really around just tweaking what you've got and really focusing on either the things where there's an obvious update to improve it, or alternatively something you know is winning, and then looking to reuse it elsewhere.
And very close to that, looking at what's winning, spend money where you get the return on the investment. You know, we've been building plans at the start of the year, and then, let's be honest, some channels perform, some channels don't perform. And so typically, after the summer, it's a great time to look at reallocating your budget and maybe moving budget from one platform or channel or publisher to another, because you know it's going to perform. Well, basically spend your money where you're going to get results.
I think now's a good time to get testimonials and case studies. This is really interesting. You know, of all the things we talk about with clients, this is probably one of the things that clients dread the most. Going and asking your customers to give you a testimonial or write a case study is really hard. It tends to be quite soul destroying because a lot of them automatically say no, but now's a great time to do it. The first is, typically your customers have come back. They've had a holiday. They're just thinking ahead. They're probably not delving right into their day to day busy work, so you've probably got some time to actually go and talk to them, and they might feel good about it, but also it's a great time, because these projects work well when you try and have deadlines. So you know, if you're trying to get sign off for a case study by Thanksgiving, say, or Christmas, that can be a great way to do it with a customer. You've both got a shared goal and a shared endpoint, and setting that deadline can be a great way to make sure the customer gives it some priorities. So it's great to get testimonials and case studies.
The other area is trade shows. So you know, the autumn or the fall period typically sees a lot of trade shows happening. It can be a very big part of the budget this time of year, and it can really help contribute to hitting goals. So we strongly recommend making sure that you really do a great job on trade shows. Now's a great time. It tends to be the spring and the autumn, where we see the trade shows peak. So if you've got trade shows, make sure you get the most out of it, and don't just think about the event itself. Trade shows are fantastic for content creation, and that can be anything from, you know, taking a videographer and doing video testimonials from clients on the booth, which I've seen work really well for some of our clients, all the way through to having your subject matter experts get together after the show closes, maybe over a couple of beers, and just talk about ideas for articles. So huge range of ways you can generate content, as well as directly making sure the trade show is successful.
Looking at landing pages, I said this was going to jump about all over the place. So, you know, it certainly does. So, you know, I think one of the things with market information is it's very easy to get things cluttered up and confused. So if you've got landing pages that are unused, you know, don't let them stay out there. Either unpublish them or delete them, and where you've got live landing pages now is a good time to look back, see what's happened over the first, you know, eight or nine months of the year, and then optimize those live landing pages to perform better. So try and understand how you can use what you've got already, make a few changes and get better performance.
Landing pages are typically one of those places where you see a hole in the funnel. So people flowing through the marketing funnel and failing to convert. I think, generally, as well as landing pages, you should look to find the holes in your funnel. So you should look to analyze where you're losing potential customers. And I think particularly what we're seeing with clients is that lead nurturing campaigns are not always delivering the results. They're not always moving customers down the customer journey. And quite often, whilst you might optimize a landing page for conversion rate, and you know, you obviously optimize digital ads for performance, you know, lead nurturing tends to be a set and forget kind of process, and that's wrong. So definitely look at your lead nurture and see what you can do to improve it.
But don't forget the digital campaigns as well. So definitely, you know, think about how you can optimize your digital campaigns. You know, some easy ways to do that are negative keywords quite often give you a big boost. If you're, you know, running search campaigns that are hitting irrelevant terms, placements. You know, everyone at Napier understands that I get incredibly frustrated, and it's the Peppa Pig argument. Don't have technical B2B ads placed in the Peppa Pig game. It probably isn't going to work. Look where your ads are running, if you're running display. And lastly, look at your audience definitions. And for those of you excited about the new Spinal Tap Movie. I might be the only person on the call who is, but I'm super excited. See if you can turn your digital marketing campaign up to 11.
Let's look at the objectives and the KPIs themselves. So sometimes, you know, we find we're running as fast as we can, and then we realize we're not quite running in the right direction, and so getting better objectives and KPIs is important. Is important, whether you can change objectives now or whether it's about setting better objectives for next year. Let's think about it now where we've got some time, rather than rushing when we're trying to build the marketing plan for next year.
So to me, perhaps one of the biggest changes in marketing is the impact of zero click. So this is where people are searching, either using, you know, search engine like Google, or using generative AI, and they're getting what they wanted without clicking through. So certainly, you know, the beginning of last year, nobody was really worried about this, maybe 1% of searches were being done through Gen AI. It was pretty insignificant. It wasn't a big deal. Today, you know, I would estimate that probably somewhere upward of 15 to 20% of searches are being done through AI, and it is a big deal now. So there's two things you've got to realize. The first is, web traffic alone is not a great indicator. It's going to be falling because of changes in the way people search, not because of anything you're doing wrong with your website. And the second thing is, is generating a strategy to appear in those generative AI results is absolutely crucial.
If you have not got a Gen AI or a GEO strategy, I would say that's probably your biggest priority, from a strategic point of view, is make sure you understand what you're going to do, so that when someone goes to ChatGPT, it talks about your brand as well as your competitors. And a very quick plug here, we've done some amazing things. We're working with a company that has a GEO tool that is absolutely awesome. It's not public yet. I can't tell you what it's going to be called or anything. It is going to be launched next month, but I've still got a couple of slots for demos this month, pre launch. And obviously the benefit pre launch is that you'll get to be able to have a demo with either the CEO or the CTO of this company as they talk to a few potential and real customers pre launch. So if you don't have a generative AI strategy, you want to appear in ChatGPT and Perplexity and Grok, definitely let me know, either put a message into the chat or send me an email, and we can help you out there with some demos.
I think you know, the next thing to do is really build better personas and customer journeys. I've mentioned, GEO has changed everything. The customer journey for your customers has changed, even if you think it hasn't, because they're using more AI based search, they're probably using AI tools to compare. So what have you learned at the start of this year, the first eight months of this year, that can improve the personas and the customer journeys you use, and particularly, you know, I think these are things that people sometimes think are written once and then forgotten about. But the truth is, is that everybody's changing. The way people behave are changing, and the way customer journeys work are changing. And if you're not updating personas and customer journeys, you're not going to be designing campaigns that will be effective.
Content calendars, another great thing to do. Hopefully you built a content calendar at the start of the year. Maybe you're using it on a rolling basis, which is fantastic. But have a look at your content calendar. See what you can do. Some of the assumptions you made about what's going to be important will have changed since the beginning of the year, and that could be anything. That can be things happening in your industry, products you've released, products that you expected to release but got delayed, you know any of that? So have a look at what content you're generating, and make sure that it's still the right content for your audience.
Look at some of the maths going on. So look at some of the attribution models. So when you're measuring stuff, I mean, KPIs are important. How many leads we getting, but what causes those leads? So how you attribute the results to different campaigns is really super important. And obviously the classic here is, you know, it's really easy to do last click attribution, what drove people to a landing page. But have a look at, you know, how your PR is impacting your results. And if your PR is not being measured and not being linked to results, then definitely look at running some experiments to work how you can attribute results to PR.
If you're doing ABM, build a better ABM target list. Again, these are quite often things that we've kicked off at the beginning of the year. We've built an ABM target list. We've run a campaign, and then nothing happens. We just keep running that campaign. That's crazy. Within your ABM campaign, you'll now have a lot of data about what's worked and what hasn't. And that could be around which personas, which job titles respond best to your messages. It can be around which companies. So you know, could be company size and how your campaigns impact that. So have a look, and of course, optimize the campaigns, but also consider whether maybe the audience, the ABM target list, is a factor and something you can update.
From the math side of analyzing performance to the human side. I think one of the longer term trends that really is beginning to have an impact is the humanization of content. And in the B2B tech sector, most organizations, and when I say most, I probably mean like 98%, are guilty of writing in corporate speak that doesn't necessarily really resonate with the reader. So look at how you're writing things, look at how you're saying things on video. Look at what you're saying in podcasts, and look at how you can actually become a little bit more human, and therefore a little bit more engaging in a company that your potential customers want to work with and become real customers for.
I've alluded this before, so I'll skip over this fairly quickly, but now's the time to start thinking about 2026. Putting together plans does take a while. Don't be that company that gets their 2026 marketing plan finalized in May 2026. Make sure it's finalized before, so that you can really hit the ground running, and you can get ahead of your KPIs rather than starting and already being behind.
So those are a few things around making your objectives better. Let's look at people, processes and systems. And this is potentially going to be a contentious one, because obviously, as we go back after the summer, what we're going to see is we're going to see people being very busy trying to get back into work, you know, potentially, you know, clearing out their email. And I'm saying, train the team. And, you know, this is something that can be difficult at this time, but I think again, what we need to do is make sure that training is something that really is an ongoing process and isn't something you do when you've got time. So you know, the reality is, yes, you probably should have done it during a quieter month in the summer. But you know, as the Chinese say, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. So let's go for now.
In terms of processes and systems, databases are probably the area that I see a really, really big problem. We see a lot of clients allowing their databases to become out of date. They may have duplicates, outdated contacts, perhaps outdated information. I might scare you now. If you're not familiar with GDPR, one of the legal requirements of GDPR is to keep your data up to date and not hold out of date of data on individuals. This is not something a lot of people realize. So everyone's familiar with this, you know, you've got to have permission to opt out, and you've got to have clear privacy policies. And yeah, we all understand that. But actually keeping your data up to date is equally a part of the GDPR law. So I would strongly recommend, if you've not been doing this, to actually take a look at doing it.
I mean, interestingly, we've seen a big jump in the number of clients taking on our data enrichment services. So we're going in, we're looking at data. We're finding, even from relatively recent data, quite high bounce rates from emails. So we're filtering out people that have either put fake email addresses in or have gone away, and then we're adding more information, and that's key, because that really lets you do clever things. And so one of the things you can do if you add more data is to segment. And if you segment your database, you can then generate much more focused, much more personalized campaigns. So definitely look at updating your data. Look at potentially enrichment campaigns to add more information about each contact and then make use of that information. Don't let it sit there. Make use of it to create better campaigns.
I mean, of course, with systems, review your martech stack. We did something similar at Napier, and I've got to be honest, it absolutely shocked us. We had two to three times the number of tools that we thought we had in our martech stack. So I would absolutely say, as a big focus, and this is something, as I said, right at the start of this webinar, is a priority for Napier, you know, is simplify the martech stack, automate where you can, avoid all the manual, you know, Excel sheets moving across, avoid the manual copy and paste into PowerPoint for reports. Let's make things automatic, integrate between systems to make them run more efficiently. And then lastly, and I managed one mention at the start and have one mention at the end of AI. I think it's compulsory in every webinar now, but consider whether AI can benefit you.
You know, there's some very simple things AI can do around either personalizing content or providing more detail for particular contacts that are really easy to do, you know, things like categorizing companies into different industry sectors. So again, if you're interested to see what we've done with that do let me know, because I think AI in some areas is proving a real benefit, and a lot of people don't realize it can be applied to things like industry classification.
So thank you very much for listening. In summary, you've got less than four months to the end of the year, and I assume you want to hit your KPIs. So we do need to do a lot, but that is a lot you can do. So definitely look up some of these ideas. If you've got questions, or if there's areas you think we could help in terms of getting you to hit KPIs, definitely let me know. And remember, it's never too early for next year.
I hope you enjoyed this. If you did, we're going to do something fun for the next webinar. We're going to set humans against AI and we're going to have a human versus the AI machine competition. So we hear a lot about people using AI for different things. We've done a lot of testing internally at Napier. We haven't really shared any results. So what we're going to do is we're going to pick some areas, some of them where we know that AI is going to do really well, some of them where we know humans are going to do really well, and hopefully surprise you with when you should use AI and when it's beneficial and when a human can deliver a better job. So excuse me, that will be held on the 28th of October, same time, three o'clock in the UK, but an hour later in America. It's the time of the year where UK and Europe bring their clocks back, and America is still waiting for Halloween before they bring their clocks back. So slightly different time for your listeners in America, but I hope you can all join us. Thank you very much for listening.
If you have any questions, please do feel free to put something in the Q&A, or alternatively, put something into the chat and let me know if you've got a question. And I'll just give it a couple of seconds for people to put something in.
Okay, I've got one question here. So either this has been an amazing webinar and answered all your questions and you're all waiting to rush off to implement the ideas, or alternatively, it's not really excited you, but hopefully it's the first and you're ready to go. But the one question is around AI search, and it's saying, you know, I talked about hitting your goals and maybe having a GEO plan, so a plan to get into AI search results. And I said this is going to impact this year. And the question is, is it really going to make a difference this year? Because SEO typically takes quite a long time, so an SEO campaign might not bear fruit immediately.
Well, I mean, the answer is, it depends, of course, on your situation. But what we've seen with clients that have implemented these GEO strategies is they can actually see measurable results within a couple of weeks. And it is quite surprising, and it does appear that the AI search results, the AI engines, they change at a much faster rate than the classic search results. So the answer is yes, absolutely, this is one of the things I would really strongly recommend you do if you want to try and raise your visibility and awareness. Really think about AI search. It's something you can do pretty easily, and it does give you, you know, a significant bump in a fairly short amount of time.
Thank you again for listening. I haven't seen any other questions, so I really appreciate your time listening. I look forward to having the race between humans and AI in the next webinar, and hopefully you'll find that interesting too. If you do have questions that you didn't want to ask in the public forum, obviously, please feel free to drop me an email. My email is Mike at NapierB2B.com, and I'd love to talk to you. Thanks very much.
Marking Smarter Marketing Campaigns in a Tech-Driven World
Listen to Mike’s recent episode of That Tech Pod, where he discusses what real success looks like—beyond clicks and leads—how Napier chooses which industries to serve, and why some sectors generate more excitement than others. Mike also explores the role of AI in marketing, from copyright questions around image generation to how automation can support campaigns that still feel human and engaging.
This episode is for business leaders and marketers who want to learn how to turn awareness into opportunities and accelerate prospects through the sales funnel.
Listen here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1738696/episodes/17824545
Unlocking Data: How to Simplify Data Integrations – Data Fetcher - Andy Cloke
For many marketers, managing data across different platforms is a constant headache. From pulling campaign metrics into Airtable to building reports that actually make sense, the process often eats up hours that could be better spent on strategy.
Andy Cloke, founder of Data Fetcher, joins the podcast to explore how no-code integrations can transform the way marketers work with data. Andy shares how Data Fetcher makes it simple to connect Airtable with your popular platforms, automatically update dashboards, and streamline reporting.
He also discusses the growing importance of APIs in marketing, why integrations are becoming non-negotiable, and how even non-technical professionals can harness these tools to work smarter.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Data Fetcher
Data Fetcher is an Airtable extension that lets non-technical teams connect to any API without writing code. Launched in 2020 as one of the first extensions on the Airtable marketplace, it now serves hundreds of customers who pull data from over 5,000 different APIs.
The tool offers pre-built integrations for popular services like Google Analytics, Stripe, and OpenAI, plus the flexibility to connect to any REST or GraphQL API. Users can schedule automated syncs, transform incoming data, and build powerful workflows directly within their Airtable bases.
As a bootstrapped and profitable company, Data Fetcher focuses on sustainable growth rather than chasing venture capital metrics. The extension has been featured by both Airtable and G2.
About Andy Cloke
Andy Cloke is the founder of Data Fetcher, a bootstrapped SaaS that helps teams connect APIs to Airtable. After teaching himself to code and working as a freelance developer, he built and sold his first startup before launching Data Fetcher on the Airtable marketplace.
As a solo founder, Andy uses Twitter to share his experiments, failures, and wins openly to help other bootstrappers. He focuses on leveraging platform ecosystems to find underserved niches and advocates for staying focused on one project rather than chasing shiny objects.
Time Stamps
00:00:17 - Guest Introduction: Andy Cloke
00:01:49 - Previous MarTech Venture: TikTok Influencer Platform
00:02:39 - Introduction to Data Fetcher
00:05:10 - Ease of Use and Integration with Airtable
00:07:26 - Challenges Marketers Face with Data Tools
00:11:46 - No-Code Movement and Its Impact on Marketing
00:13:18 - Marketplace Insights for Software Vendors
00:19:27 - Leveraging AI in Marketing Workflows
00:20:25 - Best Marketing Advice Received by Andy
00:21:31 - Advice for New Marketers
Quotes
"Data Fetcher basically lets people have an escape patch, like a really flexible tool that lets them connect to anything, pulling the data from other places." Andy Cloke, Founder of Data Fetcher.
"An API is just a way of them saying, here's how you can get data out of this tool or write data into it in a kind of predictable, robust way." Andy Cloke, Founder of Data Fetcher.
"If SEO and YouTube are working, just focus on those, just double down and just nailing one or two channels is much more effective than trying to be everywhere and to everyone." Andy Cloke, Founder of Data Fetcher.
Follow Andy:
Andy Cloke on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andycloke/
Data Fetcher’s website: https://datafetcher.com/
Data Fetcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/datafetcher/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Andy Cloke at Data Fetcher
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Andy Cloke
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Andy Cloke, who's the founder of Data Fetcher. Welcome to the podcast, Andy.
Andy: Hey, it's great to be here.
Mike: So we always like to find out a little bit about people, you know, when they come on the podcast. So can you give us a little bit of background to your career and why you ended up deciding that you needed to find Data Fetcher?
Andy: Yeah, of course. So I started off as a front-end developer and I was freelancing for various startups, doing React.js development and trying to launch my own thing on the side. So nights and weekends, I was just launching side projects, like little businesses, trying to get something going. And one of those ideas was, an IPO alerts newsletter, so managing all that from Airtable. I was trying to get financial data into Airtable. And that pain kind of led me to this idea of how do you connect Airtable to other platforms? I should probably say what Airtable is for anyone not familiar. So it's basically Google Sheets or Excel. It's a spreadsheet kind of UI that lets you build automations and visualizations into it. So it's kind of like Google Sheets on steroids is how a lot of people know it. And so yeah, back to my problem of trying to get data in, which became basically an Airtable extension, which is Data Fetcher, which I launched about five years ago. And then it's been growing steadily since then.
Mike: And it's not your first company, is it? I mean, you've previously had a MarTech company that was all about finding influencers on TikTok. Tell us a little bit about that and what happened with that company.
Andy: Yeah, so that was my previous project, which was basically a discovery platform. So I'd figured out a way to scrape TikTok and I was basically packaging that data up and helping agencies and brands find TikTok influencers to work with. And it was just brilliant timing because it was the end of 2019, just before the COVID lockdowns, when TikTok just absolutely blew up. Even my mum had TikTok for a bit. And it was just brilliant timing, rode that wave, but then realized I didn't love being in the influencer industry. It was quite faddy. The scraping it was built on could kind of keel over at any point. So I made the decision to sell the business, which bought myself a few months of personal runway to figure out the next one. But yeah, I learned a load just building it up steadily and getting it just to a few thousand in MRR.
Mike: That's fantastic. I mean, let's talk about data fetcher now. I, and you know, I'll be honest to people listening to this. The reason you're on the podcast is we had a real problem. We use air table. We're trying to pull data in. We tried some of the other tools that are available. They're all quite complicated. And I stumbled across data fetcher and it solved my problem almost immediately. So I was super excited about it. So could you talk Andy a little bit about what data fetch would do and maybe what someone in marketing might use data fetcher for.
Andy: Yeah, of course. So as I said, Airtable is a super powerful tool, but the hard bit is getting the data in there in the first place. So you might have data split across Google Analytics, across HubSpot, across multiple different tools, and you want to use Airtable as kind of your source of truth. So often people end up kind of exporting CSVs and copy and pasting data or trying to use Zapier or one of the other tools to get data in, but they're not quite flexible enough or robust enough. And so Data Fetcher basically lets people have an escape patch, like a really flexible tool that lets them connect to anything, pulling the data from other places. And it kind of sits in this sweet spot of being approachable for people who aren't technical, but they can use our pre-built integrations, and then for more technical people who maybe have some coding knowledge or some technical background, they can use the custom integrations to put in the API details themselves. So then it just handles all the authentication, pagination, those kind of slightly more technical things. It handles all that without them writing code. In terms of marketing, one of the big ones we see is people pulling in campaign metrics, so pulling in Google Ads and meta ads and Google Analytics, so pulling that into Airtable and then building out visualizations or client dashboards for their agency, things like that. Another big use case we see is programmatic SEO. So people have got a list of blog posts in their table and they want to create like the SEO meta description or like the cover image to post it on social media or anything like that. So transforming one type of content into another or creating some sort of automation around, yeah, programmatic content, I guess. And then the last one I'd just call like marketing ops. So just moving data between different tools. So between one CRM or Google sheets, whatever tool into Airtable. So they've just got that one centralized place where everything is.
Mike: So there's quite a lot. And I mean, effectively what you've done is you've built this interface between Airtable and between these tools. So it's almost pre-done. You just connect it, tell it what to do. And away it goes. Is it as simple as that?
Andy: Just about, so yeah, so we started with just the customer requests. So people needed a bit of API knowledge. And then what we saw is there are some integrations that just come up again and again and again. And so we made those kind of like built-in integrations, like a Zapier or something like that, where you can just point and click. So you can just say, select application, Google sheets, authorize, and then just like, which sheet do you want? It's as simple as that. But we've always got that balance of then having the more flexible, uh, customer requests where people can put the stuff in themselves. We've got a free plan which lets people try all of that for free and they can basically use pretty much every feature. It's just when you want to then automate that that's when they upgrade. But the beauty of having that free plan and letting people mess about with it for free is people can just test it themselves and see how they get on.
Mike: I mean, there's quite a lot to test. I mean, I was surprised you've got an integration into a website scraper. So I don't know, for example, someone involved in PR, they could potentially go and scrape data off publications, websites to analyze what the publication is covering. I mean, is that the sort of application you see people using as well?
Andy: Yeah, we see a lot of scraping and a lot of screenshotting of URLs. So a lot of people actually think it is a scraping tool itself because of the name, but we've built like a first class integration with those scraping tools because people want to do like competitor monitoring or, you know, price checking or stuff like that. And yeah, it's super powerful for that kind of use case. The most popular ones are like AI stuff, Google Sheets, and then the reporting ones. But we definitely see a bit of scraping as well.
Mike: And why do you think, you know, marketers in particular seem to need a lot of these tools? I mean, it seems like, you know, marketing is all about trying to pull data from different systems. In fact, I mean, I'll tell you, I used to be a lecturer in PR and I used to tell the students that the one skill they really needed was Excel because it's almost ubiquitous across, you know, PR agencies. I mean, why do we get into this problem in marketing that we struggle to find tools that actually do what we want and we need to pull data elsewhere?
Andy: I'd actually say it might be the availability of tools of really specialist tools that like causes the issue in the first place. So basically I think marketers want to use the best in class CRM or, you know, ads platform, whatever it is, they want to use the best tool for each job. And there are so many tools, like good tools available that you end up, yeah, with, you know, 20 or 30 different tools. But then it's like, how do I actually have an overview of all that data and these different tools? So I think that's why I end up always reaching for an Excel back in the day or a Google Sheets or an Airtable now, where they just want that one source of truth. And once you've got that and you've set that up by copy and pasting, the next step becomes an integration tool, whether it's Appia or Make or Data Fetcher. So that's kind of where it fits in.
Mike: That makes sense. I mean, I'm interested. We talked a lot about markets, obviously, a marketing podcast. But do you have some examples of some of the other customers you have in different industries? And can you tell us a little bit about, you know, some of those more interesting applications that they've got?
Andy: Yeah, I mean, one of the things building the company is just the range of different APIs and legacy systems that people are still using, but they want an escape hatch from. So for example, I've got someone who is a front end developer, and then she set up a chain of yoga studios. And she uses MindBody online for the booking, which is just like the industry default there. But it's kind of super old school and enterprise. And so She basically pulls all of her data out of MindBody Online into Airtable to build automations, whether that's welcome emails or whatever the platform can't do, she wants to build in Airtable using her front-end technical background. Other ones I've seen are a logistics company called Fox Logistics, who basically do all of their driver vetting through Airtable. So they basically are constantly hiring new drivers. And so they let their drivers kind of onboard using like a no code portal, upload their ID, so they'll upload the driver license or whatever. And then they use data fetcher to connect to open AI to scan the driver license to extract the details from it and then verify whether that person can drive for them or not. And that's happening like in real time as soon as I could drive it on boards. And then they're using Data Fetcher on the other side to do route calculation between destinations. So yeah, we see all sorts of different use cases. People have connected to over 5,000 different APIs using Data Fetcher, which just kind of boggled my mind that there are 5,000 APIs. There's probably a lot more.
Mike: So, I mean, you're talking about APIs, you mentioned APIs a few times. I don't know, let's go back to some basics. I mean, could you explain, you know, to people who are maybe marketers not really into coding, what an API is and why it's so important?
Andy: Yeah, of course. So if you imagine a tool like Twitter or a tool like Google Sheets, whatever, your data is kind of locked in there, right? And an API is just a way of them saying, here's how you can get data out of this tool or write data into it in a kind of predictable, robust way on their terms. So it's kind of like, I guess, a technical gateway to the data that's in there. And what that means is that we can build integrations on top of that and service it to our users. But it means users can also connect to that API directly without writing complete scripts or code. They can just put in the URL for the API and a header and a fairly small set of instructions that let them automatically and reliably connect to that system. So I like to talk about apps and APIs as what Data Fetcher connects to, but it's all kind of, the underlying thing I guess is APIs that it all runs on.
Mike: And this is all kind of, you know, this no-code movement, isn't it? I mean, APIs ten years ago involved getting software engineers to write code. You know, I think today a lot of marketers might have come across some of the tools you mentioned. So, you know, Zapier is one I think most people have seen, although it's kind of limited in what it can do. You know, we also use tools like Make, but some of those tools can get really complicated. So what is it you do to make sure that people who aren't programmers can actually make use of data vector and get the data they want easily?
Andy: Yeah, so we've focused on one particular workflow that people like to set up in Make or Zapier, which is connecting just Airtable to another tool, another app. So rather than trying to be everything to everyone, we've just really focused on letting people set that up really easily and being slightly opinionated with, you know, when we get the data back from that tool, this is how it will map to your Airtable records, and then letting people customize it if they want to. But by default, we just try and handle everything for people. We've also got a real focus on long tutorials and really detailed steps on letting people set that up so that we get people who haven't got an API background or a technical background, but they can set that up themselves. And then finally, our no-code integrations, just let people set those workflows up without having to learn about APIs themselves.
Mike: I mean, if I'm to summarize it, it sounds like because you're basically literally just pulling data into Airtable, that removes a lot of the potential complications, which means that you actually know what people want a lot better than if you were trying to make an incredibly flexible tool like Make.
Andy: Yeah, exactly. And then another factor is that we're a first class Airtable extension. So we are on the marketplace and we actually sit in Airtable in terms of like, you're in the same tab that you're already in when you're working in your Airtable data. And it's just, you know, sits within that. Whereas with Make or Zapier, you're kind of switching between the two and you're losing a bit of context each time. But it means we can see the live data straight away. We don't have to wait for it to load or anything. And you can kind of see the effects of what you're doing straight away.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, I have to say, when I tried it, pretty much worked automatically first time. I couldn't believe it. So it was a great tool. We're obviously a marketing podcast. And I think, you know, a lot of our listeners, they're in the engineering sector, the B2B engineering sector. And that's the sector that's changed a lot, because it's moving away from selling, you know, purely products to actually having a large element of software. So it's interesting to hear how people market software. You know, so at a high level, what's your marketing strategy for Data Fetcher?
Andy: So we have a real benefit just from being on the marketplace and we get a steady stream of pretty qualified leads just from being in a fairly small marketplace and that's probably about 50% of our new leads. But outside of that we do content marketing, so we focus on integration landing pages with full tutorials within them so focusing on kind of seo for those and then each tutorial will have a youtube video that goes with it so people can learn kind of however they prefer and the volume's really low honestly some of our youtube videos will have like a couple of hundred views but then i know from looking at the conversions that we've had like 10 customers off those so it's just like the intent is super high and so it's worth the the roi of kind of making making that content even if the the headline stats look super low and then another big part of it has been the free plan so because people can see the tutorials see the video and then just try it themselves it means sometimes they'll they'll test out themselves and then six months they'll have another use case and then they come back and upgrade and so The longer in the market with that free plan, the more we just have kind of brand awareness of the product, I guess.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I think it's interesting you talk about marketplaces because, I mean, Airtables at all, it's got a marketplace. You click there, it gives you all these additional vendors you can work with. That's interesting because a lot of the listeners will be thinking about creating marketplaces for software partners. We're seeing a lot of that happening in the B2B space. So as a software vendor, what makes a really good platform? What makes a platform something that you want to participate in and support?
Andy: Yeah, it's an interesting one, because they had a real marketplace focus a few years ago when I launched, and now it's very much in maintenance mode. So I don't think they'll ever kill it, fingers crossed not, but they also don't seem to be, they haven't really changed it in about five years. And it's, yeah, it's been an interesting journey. I think one of the things that has made a huge difference is just the size of the team that they've got focused on it. So there was a point when they really neglected it, when it would take me a couple of months to get an extension approved, so to get an update approved. And then now it's super quick because they've got a couple of really good people on it. So just having the, you know, enough resources dedicated to it to kind of bring those communication times down is massive. And then discovery as well, I think it's really important. So yeah, letting people discover new things through the marketplace, whether that's featuring featuring listings, having good categories, having good kind of marketplace SEO and predictable SEO within the marketplace. So yeah, one of the points of building for it, right, is to get some distribution through it. And so that's, yeah, that's kind of like huge as well. And then the last thing is probably just the technical side of it. So the SDK, which is what you use to build extensions, is just really, really robust and friendly and well-documented. And that makes a massive difference. I had a a brief foray into building a monday.com extension to match Data Fetcher and it was horrendous and I went back with my tail between my legs to Airtable just because it was so difficult to build on Monday. Things would change, you know, month to month things would change, things were totally unpredictable and they didn't really see the issue with it. And you see that with really mature marketplaces like Shopify and stuff, they'll still just rip out whole parts of their, of their SDK and stuff like that. And it's, I'm really grateful to be on quite a stable one, even if it's a little bit neglected.
Mike: That's really interesting because it sounds like, you know, what you're saying is if you make it easy for the partners and you also make it predictable, there's no unpleasant surprises with, you know, your product suddenly stopping working because something's changed. That's what's really going to get engagement. I mean, those are key parts. And maybe that's something that marketers building marketplaces might not think.
Andy: Yeah, I think so.
Mike: So Andy, I mean, we've talked, you know, quite a lot about what you're doing and, you know, about marketing. I mean, I'm interested. Are you using Data Fetcher in your marketing or how do you see Data Fetcher and other similar no-code tools changing the way marketers go about their business in the future?
Andy: Yeah, I think it's definitely lowered the bar to what you can build as a marketer, right? So you're not waiting on developers anymore. It's massively reduced that friction, I guess, to spin up an internal tool, to build a certain visualization, to do something like that. The way that I use it as a marketer for Data Fetcher itself is for content. So for that content marketing workflow that I explained, we basically managed all of that from Airtable and Data Fetcher is pulling in the YouTube stats, it's generating the SEO meta descriptions, it's doing all that kind of That stuff is pulling in the analytics once a landing page goes live. And so it's just pulling all of that kind of content stuff into one place and then experiment with Google ads. I can pull in the ads metrics as well. But in terms of, yeah, where that fits in generally, I think it's, it allows people, even if I didn't have a technical background, I could set that up myself and we could basically have all of our content reporting and workflows like within one tool, um, which is super powerful.
Mike: And it's interesting, I mean, you've mentioned a couple of times, you know, your ability to integrate with AI. And I think the example there of writing meta descriptions automatically is a great example. I mean, do you see this being more and more important for marketers to actually identify where they can use AI to simplify and speed things up?
Andy: I think so, yeah. So everyone knows about, you know, chucking stuff into chat GPT to create a landing page or to create an event description or whatever it is. But I think being able to do that at scale is kind of the next logical step. So being able to use, yeah, an integration tool like Data Fetcher to connect to Anthropic and generate, you know, the intro paragraph, whatever it is, being able to take old content and update it or repurpose it for, you know, hundreds or thousands of blog posts, it feels like the next kind of step, as well as, I guess, repurposing where you're taking blog posts and generating images for them or generating shorts or something like that, that feels like they're kind of next, the next step, I guess, with AI.
Mike: This has been fascinating, and I think, you know, the best thing I can say is people need to, if they're using Airtable, try Lola Fetcher. But before we let you go, Andy, there's a couple of questions we always like to ask people. And so the first one is, what's the best marketing advice that's ever been given to you?
Andy: So early on with Data Fetcher, I was trying to do everything, especially because I didn't have a marketing background. I was trying to try every channel, you know, post to Facebook, get SEO and YouTube working and even do a bit of sales and stuff. And I was telling someone about this and they basically told me that if SEO and YouTube are working, just focus on those, just double down and just Nailing one or two channels is much more effective than trying to be everywhere and to everyone. And so I think that advice is just, yeah, it's proven true over the last few years. And it's really tempting, especially when a channel slows down to then think there's a silver bullet of a new one. Um, but actually that's the time to, to iterate and to get even better at that channel. So that was the best advice I got.
Mike: I love it, that's great advice, focus on your strengths basically. The other question we always like to ask people, and I know you didn't start your career as a marketer but you're doing a lot of marketing now, is if you're talking to someone who was just entering their career, just beginning their career as a marketer, what advice would you give them to make them successful?
Andy: I'd say probably just ship things. So yeah, just build stuff and get it out there and try and get anyone on the internet to care about it. Because that's the hardest bit. It's so easy to do a course or to learn a theory and stuff, but you don't really learn until you actually start doing it. And so making those mistakes and having those learning experiences are probably what will lead to the next thing succeeding, even if you can't get the first few things off the ground. It's been true for me at least. I love it.
Mike: That's brilliant. I mean, a really optimistic, positive way to end. I mean, Andy, if somebody has been listening to this and maybe they use Airtable already, they've never used Data Fetcher, how do they find out more about the tool and actually get to try it?
Andy: Yep. Just go to Data Fetcher.com or search for Data Fetcher on the Airtable marketplace and sign up for a free account and you can use basically all the features.
Mike: That's awesome. Really simple. Andy, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.
Andy: Thanks so much.
Mike: It was a pleasure, Mike. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
From Curiosity to Conversion: The Power of Experimentation - Kameleoon – Collin Crowell
In this episode of Marketing B2B Technology, Mike sits down with Collin Crowell, VP of Growth for Kameleoon North America, an experimentation platform. Collin discusses the evolution of Kameleoon as a global player in the MarTech industry, emphasises the importance of data-driven decision-making, and explains how Kameleoon enables teams to easily build and test digital experiences.
Collin highlights the challenges B2B companies face in adopting experimentation and the need for curiosity and a willingness to explore new approaches. He also offers advice for aspiring marketers, stressing the importance of understanding their audience and leveraging AI tools to enhance productivity.
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About Kameleoon
Kameleoon is an agentic experimentation platform built for modern product and marketing teams. With Prompt-Based Experimentation, any team can turn ideas into live tests in minutes. Once ideas prove their impact, Kameleoon delivers accurate results and gives teams the control to roll them out safely. Trusted by brands like Lululemon, Toyota, Mayo Clinic, and Canada Goose, Kameleoon makes experimentation simple, fast, and scalable across the organization.
About Collin Crowell
Collin Crowell is VP of Growth for Kameleoon North America, where he leads sales, marketing, and partnerships. He helps experimentation teams design and run tests their way, secure executive buy-in, and get the most out of their tech stack. Based near Whistler, Canada, he spends his free time skiing and mountain biking.
Time Stamps
00:00:43 - Colin's Background and Journey to Kameleoon
00:03:05 - Overview of Kameleoon and Its Experimentation Platform
00:06:11 - Multivariate Testing and Its Complexity
00:10:28 - Challenges in B2B Experimentation
00:15:05 - The Importance of Incremental Gains
00:18:02 - Growing Kameleoon: Balancing Brand and Leads
00:21:06 - The Importance of Being Present in Target Channels
00:23:09 - Innovative Campaigns: Hot Ones and Qualtrics
00:26:00 - Best Marketing Advice Received
00:27:29 - Advice for New Marketers: Embrace AI
Quotes
“"If you can make that process as easy as possible for all of those teams, then the company becomes more data driven.” Collin Crowell, VP of Growth for Kameleoon North America.
"We all need to just work together to build better digital experiences. If you can make that what was really technically hard and difficult easy, then you're enabling those marketers to build out those digital experiences." Collin Crowell, VP of Growth for Kameleoon North America.
"If the company or the team is not interested in being data-driven or has some executive that refuses to acknowledge that there could be a different way of working, then we probably aren't going to play well in that space." Collin Crowell, VP of Growth for Kameleoon North America.
Follow Collin:
Collin Crowell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collincrowell/
Kameleoon’s website: https://www.kameleoon.com/
Kameleoon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kameleoon/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Collin Crowell at Kameleoon
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Collin Corwell
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Colin Crowell. Colin is the VP of Growth North America for Chameleon. Welcome to the podcast, Colin.
Collin: Hi, Mike. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mike: Thanks for joining us. It's great to have you on, Colin. We always like to start off by letting you introduce yourself a little bit, talk a little bit about your career and why you decided to join Chameleon.
Collin: Well, thanks for asking. I joined Chameleon almost about five years ago. Chameleon, for those that don't know, is an experimentation platform. It helps companies build any type of experiment or some may know them as like A-B tests. I got into the space because I was helping build a joint venture between a German consultancy dedicated to experimentation and a Canadian agency dedicated to experimentation. And we formed what was called Go Group Digital. Go Group Digital essentially built experiments for large enterprise companies across the world. And that's really how I got to know the experimentation space and how I got to know all the tools and the experimentation space, including Chameleon. So when Chameleon reached out to me to say, hey, we're getting big enough that we want to start to build out our business in North America, I was intrigued.
Mike: That sounds really cool. I mean, one of the things I've got to ask you, though, is Chameleon's actually a French MarTech company. I mean, France is not really known as a hotbed of marketing technology. So what's it like working for a French company? Are there pros or cons of doing that?
Collin: You know, it's an interesting thanks for the question. And it's an interesting one. I think it's a tale of two worlds. I disagree. I think there are a lot of interesting French based companies in the tech space. What they've done very well, though, is sort of shed their skin, their French skin when it comes to becoming a global player. So I think we have to be really careful at Chameleon to say, like, listen, yeah, we were headquartered or founded in Paris and, you know, as long ago as 2010. But today, the company is very global. And we don't really cast ourselves as a French technology company, because I think there's something disparaging about that. when you bring it up to, say, the Americans, they're always, you know, going to have some sort of odd bias against it. But there's a lot of like big companies that you would just never realize were actually French. So there's Chameleon, there's Content Square. There's others I could rattle off that you just be like, oh, wow, I had no idea. So what's it like? It's really something we don't even acknowledge anymore. It it is nice to visit Paris a few times a year.
Mike: That certainly sounds like a good advantage. I know we've had a couple of French companies as well on. So I think Send in Blue, which now Brevo is originally French. So I may be being a bit cheeky talking about France and portraying those stereotypes. So anyway, let's talk about Chameleon. You mentioned briefly what the company does. It helps people run experiments. Do you want to expand on that and explain how people would use the product and what it would give them?
Collin: Yeah, well, you know, experimentation on paper is something so intriguing, at least it should be. I mean, the whole idea is that you should be able to make data-backed decisions about what your customers want. And experimentation just simply is a way to help you make more informed decisions about what those target audiences would like to do with you. So Chameleon basically provides a single unified platform to companies. We really are specializing in mid and large enterprise companies. And these companies have realized that if they give their teams, growth teams, marketing teams, product teams, data engineering teams, the ability to essentially say, what would happen if I did this instead of that? Would it create a behavior that my target audience or customer would find enjoyable? Well, let's test it. That can be as simple as, gosh, I really hate this message. This copy just doesn't seem to work. What would happen if I said X instead of Y? Again, you test it. You validate that Y is in fact better than X. And lo and behold, that metric that you were trying to juice or improve gets better. So that really is experimentation. As I said, that's a simple test to build, but it goes far down the rabbit hole. Product and engineering teams are essentially releasing features and they don't know what's going to happen. And so what they do is they'll progressively release a feature or they'll target a specific segment of an audience and they'll see how that audience behaves. And when you're measuring that behavior, you're able to essentially say, like, this is working. This is not working. Let's do more of this. Let's do less of this. And that's all experimentation is. And if you can make that process as easy as possible for all of those teams, then the company becomes more data driven. And it's crystal clear that if you're data driven, you're going to have a much higher chance to be a leader in your category and growing this year.
Mike: I think data is really interesting because a lot of people, particularly in marketing, they get data, they use it all the time. Running an A-B test is pretty straightforward. But if you're running a multivariate test, and I know you support those, how does Chameleon help people deal with those more complex things where maybe you're changing two or three different elements on the page?
Collin: Yeah. I mean, again, I think for all the marketers listening, one of the stereotypes in the industry is that you've got two camps, the technical camp and the non-technical camp. And poor marketers just get lumped into the non-technical camp. And so we're always trying our best to understand how well do they understand the science behind the experimentation. which really comes down to like the methodologies around the statistics of it all. Gosh, Mike, is it boring? It is, I think, the technology's job to really take all of that statistical methodology, which is very important, but yet put it in a, behind the scenes and in a way that it really surfaces the insights that the marketer is actually looking for much more easily. So we can get into the weeds about how Chameleon builds multivariate tests and how it controls what we call cross or concurrent testing, where you're running multiple tests at the same time or you're running multivariate tests. But at the end of the day, no one should care about that. You should feel like, hey, I want to go in and make sure that I'm building a digital experience that works for my target audience. And I just want to pump out a dashboard that lets me decide, yes, this is working. No, it isn't working or I don't have enough information to make a decision. So I can rattle off all the different incredible features that Camelia will have. One of them, again, would be what we call our multi-stat engine. It's going to provide those teams with Bayesian, Cupid, Frequentist, Sequential. I mean, you name it, all the different kinds of statistical methodologies. But at the end of the day, what we're really trying to do is make experimentation super accessible for any type of team, because if you don't do that, it doesn't matter how amazing your stats engine is.
Mike: I love that, we don't care, we just want a dashboard that tells us what to do. I think that's a great approach in terms of product philosophy. And maybe I think one of those follow-on questions is, so who really benefits from this? Because you talked about such a range of complexity, from introducing new features into a web app, all the way through to just changing a message. I mean, where does Chameleon really play well?
Collin: We play well where teams realize they have a crystal ball and they want to be able to look into this crystal ball and see around corners as to what their customers want. So if the company or the team is not interested or and being data-driven or has some executive that refuses to acknowledge that there could be a different way of working, then we probably aren't going to play well in that space. But if the company, or like I said, those teams inside of the company are curious, just simply curious and very aware of the interests of their customer, then it starts to become interesting because then they are looking for a solution that basically does a few things. One, can it help them build a new version of the digital experience? So the build part is, you know, I think half the battle. And we often in this industry get stuck in the build part, which is an important part, because if you can't build the new digital experience, well, then how could you test it? But to get to the next part, which is, okay, well, now that I've built that digital experience, can I target the right audience? Can I choose the right goals to measure the experience I've created? Can I roll out the experience or what we call traffic allocation in a way that makes sense and saves me time and stress? That's that configure part. And again, Chameleon is really designed to support those teams that are looking for, hey, I want to be able to build quickly a new variant. And I want to be able to validate if it's moving my customer on the right or the wrong direction. And so, yeah, if they're curious, then we should dive in and start helping them. But if they're not prepared to even just be curious, then they're not ready to start experimenting.
Mike: And do you think that's a bit of a challenge with B2B? Because I think, you know, in consumer, quite often, marketers are very data driven, very results driven. Whereas in B2B, there tends to be a lot of this, it's got to be the right corporate voice, it's got to look right, it's got to be on brand. I mean, do you think that holds back B2B sometimes?
Collin: Yeah, I think there can be. I mean, fortunately, I think it's starting to change. I think people are realizing that, again, we do some research every year. It's called more or less chameleon all team experimentation research. And essentially what we do is we look at about 150 something companies across the US and the UK, and we ask them, hey, Do you think you are a leader in your category and do you plan to grow this year? And if they answer yes to those questions, then we deep dive into like their behavior when it comes to like their work. And a couple of things pop out. Number one thing is they see experimentation as critical to their business. Just nine out of 10 of them are saying we have to experiment if we want to be if we want to be a leader and if we want to grow. And then again, I think all those biases or impediments or obstacles, they're still there, but they're able to be sort of pushed aside and manipulated and massaged like, yeah, of course, the brand's important. But are we really going to not even explore whether or not this new messaging could help us move deeper into this category? I mean, Who is against growth here? So that fortunately is beginning to, I think, grow in momentum. And I think that's healthy for B2B. It's healthy for B2C. It's just healthy for every business to think that.
Mike: I think that's very positive. I mean, you've suggested, Colin, that maybe some of it is culture, I guess is what you call it. The company's not really looking for those opportunities to grow. Are there any other things that hold back people from doing experimentation? What are the things they find difficult?
Collin: One, let's just start with like, you may not have the technical resources, like a lot of teams. And this is why experimentation platforms like Chameleon are helpful, because some of those teams may want to be data driven, and they want to experiment, but they may not have the technical capabilities to build something new, right. And this is where tools like Chameleon can come in, because we help those non technical teams build new digital experiences, most recently with what we call prompt based experimentation. Your audiences may know that you can chat with Gen AI today to create any kind of new digital experience. What Chameleon does successfully is it allows you to chat with Gen AI to build a new digital experience of your existing web products or websites. And if you can make that what was really technically hard and difficult, easy like Chameleon can now, then you're enabling those marketers to build out those digital experiences. Now, but on the flip side, if you go over to the engineering team or the product team that are far more technical, if they're pressured to just simply pump out product, pump out releases, then Again, I'm not sure that we're the right fit for them. But if the company is saying to themselves, like, gosh, is this feature good for my business? Is it good for that customer? Well, how do you determine good? Well, you essentially let the customer tell you. And how does the customer tell you? Well, through some KPIs or some metrics that you're tracking. So if they want to be really customer centric and data driven, Then those product and engineering team say, well, you know what? Let's flag this feature. Let's assign a couple KPIs to it. Let's see whether or not the customer or the users behave like we think they're going to behave. And if it's working, let's do more of it versus just like, okay, everyone, we've got our quarterly roadmap. I mean, some of the enterprise companies I work with, they're planning like, H2 2026 features. And if you look at the companies that are successful in that chameleon, all teams research report, they are not working on a semestrial basis. They're working on like a sprint like a couple of weeks basis. That's how fast these companies are able to react to what their customers are doing. So, again, you have to want to be customer centric. If you if you were not there yet, it's going to be hard for you to really leverage experimentation.
Mike: I think that's a great point. I love this reference back to research. I mean, you know, it's really interesting. Do you have some examples of what kind of uplift do people get when they do testing? I mean, I guess it varies very much upon the situation and what you're changing. But if you could give us some examples as to where people get the benefit from doing it.
Collin: Yeah. I mean, again, We all love the, you know, I'm going to pull out my American reference, you know, the home run. So everyone should sort of have a portfolio of experiments. Some of your experiments are going to be designed to like, go for big home run swings. All right. And those uplifts can be enormous. And they're the ones that everybody likes to talk about and promote and put in their case studies and success stories. They're important, but, you know, they're few and far between. When you look at some of the world's leading agencies and experts and teams dedicated, I mean, wake up every day and just do conversion rate optimization experimentation. They are wrong up to 80% of the time. So this idea that you can just hit home run after home run after home run and get uplifts all the time that just are business transformational is a complete myth. And so avoid that pitfall and trap. So your portfolio can't just be composed of home runs. It has to be composed of like Incremental gains. And this is where experimentation really comes into play. Those incremental gains are quite small, frankly, and we're talking about, you know, a percentage uplift. But if you can move the needle steadily by a percent, a half a percent. over time, these compound in such a way that not only is the team thinking about being data driven, they're also getting the compounding effects of creating a better optimized digital experience that your customer likes more than the other competitors. and this transforms into business impact. I think another thing you want to be careful of is you don't want to go off into a board meeting and tell your CFO that this test that you ran three months ago is going to generate a million dollars for the next quarter sales. The CFO is smart enough to realize that's complete BS. There are so many things that affect whether or not that test will actually generate revenue that you want to be wary of saying my tests generate X dollars and instead say my experiments generate these insights that guide our leadership, guide our teams on what's the right way to be working. And again, that overall net effect is just transformational in a positive way that you are almost statistically certain to be a leader in your category if you do so.
Mike: I love that. I love that focus on the compounding of small gains rather than find that magic bullet. I think that's a great analogy.
Collin: Well, again, look at it as a portfolio. You need to have big, medium and small swings. If you are just swinging for the fences every single time, you're just going to burn out quickly. Everyone's going to not trust you. This will just be seen as a boondoggle and it'll be discarded. But if you only do marginal tests like, you know, little tiny things, people like, what the hell? This isn't going to transform my business. I don't care about message tests or button color tests like this stuff is just little tiny things that don't mean much to us. Show me the bigger plays. And so that's why I always advise companies and teams to really think about their portfolio versus, you know, a certain one type of test.
Mike: I mean, that's really interesting, Colin. Just moving forward a bit, I'm interested to know how you approach growing the business at Chameleon. So how are you dealing with, for example, this issue between building a brand and kind of that top of the funnel stuff versus driving leads? What's your approach?
Collin: Well, you know, I always tell my team that, you know, there's no I always look at marketing as a face. You can't have just a pair of beautiful eyes or gorgeous mouth. You know, if you really want to be a face, you need to have a complete package. And for me, that transforms into like, OK, we need to get content marketing right. We need to get event marketing right. We need to get paid marketing. We need to have our social media all organized. So again, what I like to do is make sure that we're firing on all cylinders and those key channels are on those key mediums for the entire funnel. Like so everything from tofu down to like bofu or bottom of the funnel. What I am finding is more and more important, especially after you've established your own internal like owned channels and your own mediums. What you really need to do is, well, here at Chameleon is what we call the eat our dog food or drink our champagne, which is OK, great. We've now got folks in place to manage those channels and execute those campaigns and strategies. But Are we really customer centric or reader centric or audience centric? I am now a big believer in, and once you've got your owned channels understood and controlled, you need to quickly move over and start making sure that you are at the watering holes where your target customers are getting their media, their news, their information. and interacting with other your competitor brands or your your space. And so if you can really understand those watering holes and be present in those watering holes, then your own channels can get better. But until then, you're just coming up with ideas on your own and in a vacuum. And that has a very short shelf life.
Mike: I mean, it's an awful lot of sense. And I love, you know, one of the themes coming throughout this whole interview seems to be it's about balance. You know, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Don't focus on, you know, those big swings for the fences. But, you know, balance out what you're doing. I think that's a really interesting approach. Does that reflect your approach to marketing?
Collin: Yeah, I think so. Again, There are, of course, other strategies where you can put all of your eggs in and events marketing. And, you know, this is there's probably a thousand LinkedIn posts that will tell you, you know, do this strategy versus that strategy. Listen, I don't want to come across as like we try to be everywhere all at once. I mean, there is some balance. There is some excuse me, some commitment you have to make just for practical resource purposes. But yeah, I think this ability to not only take care of business internally, but be present in what we call external channels here at Chameleon and our team, we say rob the banks. Why do we say rob the banks? It's a bad joke about how a bank robber said, you know, answered a question. Why do you rob banks? And he says, that's where all the money is. Well, This is the same. Go to those watering holes. Rob those banks. That's where your audiences are. That's where your target customers are. So we really want to, I'd say, be 60 40 robbing the banks versus just taking care of our own channels. I think the other thing we all have to acknowledge is that search is changing. And so I think a lot of what we built inbound marketing wise was predicated in the idea of like search being successful and search blessedly, painfully is changing. Now, more and more people are turning to, you know, AI for getting their news or getting their information. And we have to be able to react to that. And one of the best ways to do that, I think, is, again, to be present in your owned and your earned channels.
Mike: I love it. Colin, it's been fascinating. Before I let you go, just a couple of questions we'd like to ask everyone. The first is, can you give us an example of a campaign that you've seen that you think is really innovative or creative recently?
Collin: Gosh, you know, I always come up with like two and they tend to be a bit more brand centric. The first one has nothing to do with us, but it's a fun one. I'm not sure people appreciate it, but hot ones.
Mike: Are you familiar with this show? Never seen, I think it's an American one, an American show.
Collin: Hot Ones is this brilliant show that is built to sell hot sauce. And it started, gosh, I want to say, you know, maybe 10 plus years ago. But essentially, they bring on celebrities and steadily feed them hotter and hotter hot sauces. And then they ask them really poignant, interesting questions. And the celebrities that are so well trained to respond to the BS PR questions, are flummoxed by the hot sauce and they give really interesting answers. And these shows, Mike, have hundreds of millions of views on YouTube. It's an incredibly popular show and it's now like I think reached mass market, certainly in the US or a lot of folks know about the show. And again, that's just pure content marketing designed to sell hot sauce. You got to tip your hat. Good job. The other campaign that I remember that I always thought was smart and I I guess I liked it because I'm in the customer experience space. Qualtrics did one. I think it was something along the lines of like chief apology officer. I'm not sure if you remember this one, but there was a really slick video campaign where they had this Sleazy executive basically gifted in the art of apologizing for crappy digital experiences and I just thought that was a smart way to draw attention to the idea that. Do you really want to have this culture in your company where you're just constantly trying to, you know, smooth out horrible digital experiences? So that one stuck with me and I wish I had always done it. And again, I think that video format, people are just glued to their screens. And so if you can just scroll with your thumb up and touch them and all those channels, then I think you have something good there.
Mike: Love it. I can just imagine everyone listening to the show still shaking their head going, I can't believe Mike hasn't watched Hot Ones on YouTube. I will go and have a look. I'm a little bit older than probably a lot of the listeners, so maybe that's the issue. Next question, Colin. I'm really interested to know, what's the best piece of marketing advice that someone's given to you?
Collin: The best piece of marketing advice that someone's given me I think going back to this idea that you need to understand the person you're trying to reach better than yourself or your product. I think we get so wrapped up in our campaigns in our amazing products and services and technologies that we forget what we're really trying to do is solve someone's problems or help them with their opportunities. And if you can really drill down and understand what it is that they want to achieve, Lo and behold, magically, all of the solutions on how to reach them and engage with them, interact with them, come to light. I know it's not the sexiest or maybe even the most original answer, but I think if we turn back to these tried and true practices, They deliver results.
Mike: Love it. I mean, obviously, we've had people say similar-ish things before, but I think it's super important. You've really got to understand things from your customer's point of view rather than from your point of view, and don't fall in love too much with your product. Learn to love the customer. And then the last question, we've mentioned it a couple of times, marketing is changing incredibly quickly at the moment. So if you were talking to someone that was just starting out on a career in marketing, what advice would you give them?
Collin: If I was just starting my career in marketing, the first thing I would do would be to explore AI agents. AI agents, for the audience, are essentially tools or robots that you send out to do something specific for you. And what is so interesting today is that you can essentially assemble a team of these AI agents to probably boost your productivity by 50. It's astonishing how productive you can be. Now, what they're not going to do is be very original in what they're pumping out. They're going to default to like the lowest common denominator best practices. The language is going to probably be pretty AI bland. But the fact that you get to have the ability to correct versus create all of that content and all of that copy and messaging that these agents can bring to you is astonishing. So you can just essentially multiply your presence by 100 through agents and then have the ability to curate it and correct it in a way that fits whatever you're trying to achieve. So, again, I would really make sure that if I was into marketing, I understood those two key points. Who am I trying to reach? and how can I use AI agents to make sure that I am reaching them faster than the next guy? Because if you can put those two things on a nice looking CV or resume, you're gonna be golden. People are gonna pick you up in a heartbeat.
Mike: Love it, I think that's great advice. Colin, it's been fascinating. It's been a great conversation. If people listening to this would like to learn a little bit more about CRO or perhaps they wanna find out more about Chameleon, where's the best place to get a hold of you?
Collin: Oh, gosh, well, the easiest way to learn more about experimentation or what we call all team experimentation, where everybody can come to one single place and find a way to build experiments, whether you're technically gifted or have technical resources available to you or not, is our website. I would just visit www.chameleon.com. You'll see it probably in the copy below how to spell it. You can always find me on LinkedIn. I'm very happy to chat with anybody about where they're at with their experimentation program. And again, we all need to just work together to build better digital experiences.
Mike: That's amazing. I think it's been a fascinating conversation. I've learned so much. Really appreciate you being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.
Collin: Pleasure to be here. Good luck to everyone out there. Start experimenting.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Transforming the Customer Journey: How Funnelytics is Redefining Funnel Visualization
We’re joined by Mikael Dia, founder and CEO of Funnelytics, a visual journey mapping tool built to help marketers optimize conversions and better communicate strategy.
Mikael shares how the rise of multi-touch, non-linear customer journeys inspired Funnelytics, and how the platform goes far beyond funnel mapping to uncover what drives results. We explore how marketers are using visualization to align teams, boost performance, and turn complex data into clear, actionable insights.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
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- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Funnelytics
Funnelytics is a visual funnel analytics platform designed to help marketers track, analyze, and optimize the entire customer journey, without needing to be a data expert. By combining intuitive whiteboarding with powerful analytics, Funnelytics transforms complex data into clear, real-time visual maps that show exactly how users move through your marketing funnels.
Whether you're a hands-on marketer or prefer expert support, Funnelytics empowers you to grow smarter by identifying what’s working, what’s not, and where to focus next.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Mikael Dia
00:00:39 - Mikael 's Background and Journey in Digital Marketing
00:01:53 - The Evolution of Customer Journeys in Marketing
00:05:04 - Identifying the Core Problem Funnelytics Solves
00:08:36 - Understanding Funnelytics Customer Base
00:10:51 - Differences Between B2B and B2C Marketing Analytics
00:12:35 - Shifts in Customer Behavior Over the Years
00:14:29 - Sales Involvement in Selling Funnelytics
00:18:06 - The Importance of Branding in Marketing
00:20:07 - The Impact of AI on Marketing Trends
00:25:48 - How to Connect with Mikael Dia and Learn More About Funnelytics
Quotes
“Learn as much as you can about how the puzzle fits together...Marketing can be a machine, and it should be thought of as a machine. It shouldn't be thought of as how creative your next campaign is or what your logo look like and, and a lot of the stuff that falls under brand, it's all of it, it fits together to create a machine to turn strangers into customers. Learn as much about each puzzle piece to understand how can you architect that machine, for any company.” - Mikael Dia, founder and CEO of Funnelytics
Follow Mikael:
Mikael Dia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikaeldia/
Funnelytics website: https://www.funnelytics.io/
Funnelytics on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/funnelytics-io/about/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We’d also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast – The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Mikael Dia at Funnelytics
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Mikael Dia
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Mikel Dea. Mikel is the founder of Funnelytics. Welcome to the podcast, Mikael.
Mikael: Thank you for having me, Mike.
Mike: It's great to have you on the podcast. Do you want to start off and just give us a bit of a background about you? Tell us a little bit about your career and why you decided to found Funnelytics.
Mikael: Yeah, no problem. So I'll give you the high level so that I don't bore you with my backstory. But basically, I've been a digital marketer and online entrepreneur for well over a decade now. And I've built three businesses at this stage, two seven figure businesses, one eight figure business. The two seven figure businesses were in me running my own agency and also a nutrition coaching business that I was a partner in. And then my figure business being my software company and i really started this back in around two thousand nine two thousand ten where i became kind of obsessed with this idea of how do i take a stranger and turn it into a customer and. Really, I studied and learned all of the components of that puzzle. Everything from buying ads to SEO to conversion psychology to follow ups and landing pages. and basically the different phases of a funnel and all of that stuff and I started Funnelytics while I was running my agency to really solve my own problem at the end of the day. And it evolved into something much bigger than what I anticipated. But it was really there to solve my own problem, which is, you know, we live in a world where these customer journeys and marketing is is getting more and more complex. The different touch points and the paths that people take to become a customer is no longer very linear. Back in early 2000s, it was really easy. I could set up a little Google ad, get somebody a landing page, get their name and email, sell them, and it worked. I could do that with Facebook, but now people are jumping to review sites, checking your blog, going to Chat GPT to ask for questions, going on LinkedIn, and they're kind of jumping all over the place. And, and it's no longer simple to kind of visualize and understand that journey, you know, from a data standpoint. So what Funnelytics allows us to do is basically visualize that entire journey on a canvas. We built a digital whiteboard, basically, that allows us to map every single touchpoint of a customer journey, connect it together, and then just see the data right there on top. So I could see what's working, what's not, what are the paths that people are taking, where are those drop-offs. Really, where do I need to focus in order for us to optimize and make more money from the same marketing. Fundamentally, that is what we do. And that is a little bit of my career.
Mike: And so it's interesting. I mean, you talk about the kind of messy customer journey we see today. So presumably, Funnelytics as a tool, it's doing a lot more than mapping a simple awareness, interest, desire, action funnel. You're actually really mapping a customer journey in detail. Is that right?
Mikael: Yeah, you're absolutely right. So I don't, you know, it's interesting. The word funnel is something that gets thrown around a lot, right? Like, you know, a lot of people talk about the marketing funnel being, quote unquote, dead. I think the problem is people think of the word funnel as either this, these phases of a journey. So like you said, awareness, consideration, you know, conversion, blah, blah, blah. Or they think of it too much on the other end, like the Russell Brunson Click funnels audience, you know, the people who think of it as a, It's an opt-in page with an email follow-up and a sales video and buy, right? Like a very, very structured sequence. And the reality is it's somewhere kind of in between. It's what are the series of touch points that you've got to put together in order to take this stranger to get them to then take action and buy something. And those touch points come in the form of traffic sources, different pages on your site, different actions that they can take, whether it's engaging with a video or a button. Or, you know, conversion actions like filling out a form or scheduling a call or an order purchase or whatever it may be. So basically what Funnelytics allows you to do is take all of those different touch points and throw them on a canvas and then connect them together, sequence them together to basically understand, well, what is somebody actually doing to get to that conversion stage?
Mike: And I mean, obviously, understanding the funnel lets you do a lot of things. You said it solved a problem, but you didn't talk about the exact problem. Because I think you could solve a problem around what to optimize, you could solve a problem about where to allocate budget, you could solve a problem around reporting. So what was the challenge you found that you actually, you know, needed to solve with Funnelytics? And then how broad are you going today?
Mikael: Yeah, it's a good question. And the problem was not so much a major like, OK, well, this problem is not solvable today. It's the way that we approach solving the problem was very, very complicated. So fundamentally, what we do as marketers is we visualize these strategies, these marketing funnels, these engines, whatever you want to call it. on some sort of whiteboard, on a piece of paper, on a PowerPoint, on Lucidchart, some sort of flow diagram, right? And we basically say, okay, well, we're going to use Facebook ads, we're going to use Google ads, it's going to go over to this page over here. And on this page, where there's going to be an opt in, and now we're going to get a sequence of emails, and those emails are going to go over to this page. And we visualize all of this so that when we present it to our team, when we present it to a client, it's really clear. It's like, OK, this is the thing that is going to help us drive this conversion that we care about. But in order to see whether or not that's performing now, we've got to build spreadsheets and look at dashboards. And Facebook tells me this thing and Google tells me this other thing. And then I got to log into HubSpot and it tells me that I've got these many contacts and it doesn't match up. So I got to start trying to stitch this stuff together. And these two things don't look anything like each other. Right. I have my right brain thinking and looking at this picture for a strategy. And then I've got to switch over to my left brain and be super analytical to understand how that picture translates into these spreadsheets. And that was the fundamental problem that I wanted to address. How do I communicate the results of this strategy to my clients by showing them this is what people are actually doing? These are the conversion rates across each of these steps. This is the flow people are taking. And I always had a hard time explaining that using kind of spreadsheets and dashboards and charts and graphs. So fundamentally, that was the goal is the visibility problem, right? Basically creating awareness and showing my clients that if you can see it on a canvas, you can visually see these are the bottlenecks. And this is where we're focusing on. And for some reason, when I did it, it created this aha moment. My first prototype for Funnelytics was literally me mapping a strategy on a PowerPoint presentation and then taking the numbers, like manually calculating the numbers from Google Analytics and Facebook and all that, and putting it onto that same picture. Basically, okay, there's 500 people who clicked on this Facebook ad and they went to this page. And then from there, 30% went and opened and went here. And I just show them that and instantly they would be like, Oh, Okay, I get it. I understand where you're going to focus. I understand that if you fix this thing, I make this much more money. It makes sense to me, right? So that's, that's why I built the tool. It was really for myself.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, you're very much to say, but if yourself, it's obviously a very popular tool now. I mean, do you want to talk a little bit about the range of customers that use analytics?
Mikael: Yeah, it took us a long time to understand who was the customer and and also for me to get to a stage where my vision matched the reality, right? And I think that's one of the hardest things about building a software, especially as a non-technical founder. It's very, very easy to dream up of what this thing can do. And then you go back to engineers and they're like, yeah, it's not that simple. So in the early days, Funnelytics was really kind of attracting a lot of solopreneurs. A lot of the people who were trying to launch that first marketing funnel to try, they were more of the strategists. They would use our mapping tool more so than they would use the analytics, which made sense. Our analytics didn't really work very well, to be honest. And as we started kind of evolving and improving the analytics, our market started to shift much more towards the performance marketers who actually cared about looking at the data, less so the strategists who cared about selling that strategy, whether it was internally or to a potential client. So at this stage right now, the biggest users of Funnelytics, or at least the people that get the most value out of Funnelytics, I should say, are, you know, three to ten million dollar businesses. They are the ones who run ads. They're spending money on traffic. And really, they're trying to optimize those conversions. They don't want to spend more because as they spend more, you know, their return on ad spend starts to flatline and they're struggling to figure out how to kind of scale beyond that. Um, and when they can see what happens between the ad and the purchase and they can visualize that and they can optimize those bottlenecks, they start to get a lot of value. So usually e-commerce businesses, info product, you know, info businesses, professional services, you know, the, the types of businesses that drive a lot of inbound traffic, if that makes sense.
Mike: I'm interested because obviously the audience of this podcast is very much B2B. I mean, do you see a difference between business to business and business to consumer marketers in terms of their use of analytics and their use particularly of Funnelytics?
Mikael: Yeah. The biggest difference I think is most B2B businesses truly are, they're still very divided in terms of marketing and sales. And you kind of have this to B2C typically is much more, okay, well, we are usually selling people directly to some sort of order form. Marketing is sales because everything is led towards trying to get that conversion. What we're starting to see on the B2B side is kind of this rev-ops coming in where it overlooks both. And that Rev Ops person is the one who's trying to understand the journey. The journey doesn't end at somebody filling out a form or booking a demo or going down that path. The journey ends when the deal is won. at least on the acquisition side. Now with a tool like Font Analytics, we built a lot of functionality that allows us to pull in deal pipelines and tie that back to marketing. So we can see that entire journey from that first click that sends somebody to my site to people moving down the pipeline stages. So it kind of gives a little bit of visibility across the full customer journey. But fundamentally, it is still very different. They're starting to merge a little bit more, but it is definitely different.
Mike: So it's interesting. I mean, B2B, the behavior of the marketers has changed, obviously, with the introduction of Rev Ops and viewing more of the overall journey. What about the behavior of customers? Do you think that's changed over the last few years?
Mikael: Yeah, I mean, look, B2B customers or B2C customers, they're still humans at the end of the day. They still have emotions and they still have desires and they still get triggered off of the same psychological triggers as everybody else. And I think more and more these buyers are less and less looking to speak to sales. They're more and more moving towards, I want to learn myself and I want to figure out like, is this the right thing before I move on to that sales call? Because they know it's part of that sales process. You see a lot of product led growth companies now that Even in the B2B space, it's growing and it's moving in the right direction. So the marketing is there to really create the sale at the end of the day. Right. The marketing is there not just to create awareness, but it's there to really get that person all the way to the end. And then really the conversation, the sales conversation is a formality because You know, we either have to put together a custom quote for you or because it's too expensive and nobody's going to just put in a credit card onto that order form by themselves. Right. So I think the behavior is shifting more and more towards everyone wants product led. Everyone wants to kind of go through the journey themselves. And really, we need to think of the sales conversation as a touch point in that journey. for a specific type of offer, not think of it as this is sales and this is marketing. The sales conversation is just another touchpoint. And that's the reality of it in these days.
Mike: And it's interesting because Funnelytics is not particularly expensive, but it's certainly not a negligible purchase. So do you find you need to involve salespeople in selling Funnelytics or is it very much a online self-serve business?
Mikael: Yeah, it's interesting because we tested a lot with price points and we've gone through both the low end kind of cheaper entry product led approach. We've also experimented with the higher end, you need to book a demo approach with selling pilots and higher level prices. And what's interesting is we kind of found an interesting sweet spot for ourselves now where It's not too expensive where the average person who knows the problem and understands the problem isn't willing to give it a trial because they know that if they look at any other competitor, you know, we're in that same range of, okay, performance marketing tools. It's all within kind of, let's call it the 300 to $500 a month range for really solid tools. So they're aware enough that they're not thrown off by that price point. But what's interesting is it does push away the people who are too low for us. And it creates that barrier for them because now they're sitting there and they're like, oh, that's more expensive than what I'm willing to try, which is something that we want. Ultimately, we want to make sure that we repel the people who are going to eat up our support and make it harder for us and ask for things that aren't necessarily in our roadmap. So we've been kind of trying to figure out how can we keep that product led approach with sales assistance, as opposed to having a sales led approach where everybody must speak to somebody in order to purchase. Because once you do that, now it becomes really, really challenging to scale. Now we have to build a sales team, you really have to kind of go down that path versus we've built it is people coming from a product led approach, sales is there to assist the close based on questions. And you can still book a demo, but you don't have to go down that path. So it's working out so far for us, but we're always experimenting.
Mike: It's interesting. I love the discussion about testing price points. I mean, that's fascinating that you tried such a wide range of price points to see what worked.
Mikael: Yeah, it's always interesting because it shows you very, very quickly how your market is segmented. It's an interesting dynamic to test a whole lot of price points because when you only have one price point, You start to realize that you're putting everybody in the same bucket and they're not right. So when you do your, let's say your churn analysis, even like, okay, well we have, I don't know, 8% month over month churn, which is, you know, people are sticking around for a whole year, but it's like, okay, but who is sticking around and who is staying for 24 months versus who's staying for six months. And what is the difference? And now all of a sudden you look at some of the people who are sticking for 24 months and. There are big companies who would have easily paid and gladly paid $500 a month for your $100 a month tool, right? And by you playing around with pricing, you start to really segment the market and you start to understand where do we fit and where do we really want to play, right? What's our ideal price point for the tool that we offer for the client we want to attract? And yeah, it's been an interesting experiment.
Mike: I was just to change track a bit. One of the things we've had a lot of people talk about on the podcast is the fact that the branding is kind of back. You know, there was a big boom in performance marketing. And now actually, I think a lot of brands are realizing that you can't just focus on performance marketing, you've got to build the brand, you've got to build reputation. Is there a way Funnelytics can understand the impact of brand on the purchase decision?
Mikael: Funnelytics ultimately looks at how people come to your site and how they then navigate and then do specific actions from that. So ultimately, we can look at what drove people to your site, whether it's a refer, whether it's a specific link click. So from that standpoint, you kind of get a sense of what brings people into your ecosystem. And based on how you post on social media, or based on where they come from, you can kind of get a sense of, okay, was this more of an awareness kind of brand play? Or was this more of a conversion, you know, bottom of the funnel type of piece of content, but brand is much broader than just you know, how are people getting to your site? This right here is brand. Me being on a podcast is brand at the end of the day, right? Me kind of going out there as a founder and going on a stage and speaking creates brand awareness, which is really difficult to measure. There's no way for me to know that somebody listened to the Marketing B2B podcast and now all of a sudden goes to funnellytics.io and decides to type it in directly. And I know that that's where that person came from, right? Unless there's a specific link or something like that. So not really in that sense, to be completely honest. But I think that's a really hard thing to measure in general.
Mike: Yeah, and I think if you could solve that problem, then you'd be a very wealthy person as well.
Mikael: If there's a solution to the problem, for sure. But you know what? It's an interesting battle between tracking and privacy. Right. It's funny because obviously marketers want to track everything. We just want to make sure we have a perfect profile of who you are and what you do on our site, because that allows us to, you know, improve the experience to make you convert more. And what's interesting is consumers don't want to be tracked. But the distinction with consumers is they also don't want generic experiences, right? They want very custom experiences. They want their feed to be 100 percent tailored to them. They don't want to go to YouTube and see random stuff. They want to see what they like. I love the NBA. I love music. So I want to see that stuff when I go to YouTube. So it's this weird dynamic because. Privacy policies are increasing, but on the flip side, so is personalization and custom experiences. And those two things can't really be mutually exclusive. Like you have to track people to give them the experience that they want. Um, and you have to understand their behaviors. So it's an interesting dynamic for sure.
Mike: Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, I think it's one of the big changes. You've obviously been running Funnelytics for several years now. I'm interested, I mean, other than the increase in the desire for privacy, what do you see as the big trends that have happened over the last few years in marketing? And maybe what do you see happening over the next five years or so?
Mikael: I think you know the answer to that one. It's the same thing that everybody talks about, which is one thing and one thing only AI. It's the trend. It is the thing that is completely obviously revolutionizing everything, right? And we're just at the precipice of what this thing can really truly do and how it will disrupt marketers and how it will disrupt marketing and sales and really all aspects of business in general. And I think fundamentally, if you are not using and leveraging AI to build a better machine, you're going to be left behind. And it's pretty simple. The next billion dollar company will be run by three people and a whole army of AI, right? And that's just the reality. It's happening now. And I think if we don't adopt that, we will we will fall behind. Nobody likes doing, right? Setting up tracking, analyzing data, basically coming up with the insights. I just wanted the answer, right? I just want to know, like, what do I do tomorrow in order to hit my targets? Like, tell me and typically now it's a process, right? Okay, well, let me log in and let me stitch this data together and let me analyze and let me do, you know, make sure I have this expert here who's been doing it long enough that they can do this analysis properly. And now AI can do this in a second, right? It's instant. It can tell you by feeding it the right stuff. here's what you need to do. Fix this, this, and this, and you will have this increase and you're good to go. And that's what we need to kind of move towards. And yeah, so I mean, AI is obviously the biggest trend that has come to play in the last, I don't even know, maybe since the smartphone, I don't know. I think it's bigger than the smartphone, to be honest. It's crazy.
Mike: That's pretty cool. I'm looking forward to that button I click on that says hit my targets and everything works. So everything works.
Mikael: It's happening. Your, your campaigns are going to get created. The copy is going to be rewritten. The split tests are going to be done automatically. Like it's, and it will happen, you know, and that's a, that's the future.
Mike: Mikael, before we let you go, there's two quick questions we like to ask all the guests on the podcast. And the first one really simple and straightforward. What's the best bit of marketing advice has ever been given to you?
Mikael: Wow, the best bit of marketing advice that's ever been given to me. 50% of the sales in the follow-up. That's the first thing that comes to mind right now. Most marketers think that it's about just, cool, we've got to spend money on ads, or we've got to create content. And they neglect a lot of that process. It's multiple touch points that you need to go through in order to get converts. So I'll throw that one out there. There's probably a lot of others, but this one's the first one that came to mind.
Mike: Yeah, great. I love that. And then the other question we always ask is if you're talking to someone who is just starting their career in marketing, what advice would you give them?
Mikael: Learn as much as you can about how the puzzle fits together. What I mean by that is marketing can be a machine and it should be thought of as a machine. It shouldn't be thought of as how creative is your next campaign or what does your logo look like and a lot of the stuff that falls under brand. It's all of it fits together to create a machine to turn strangers into customers and learn as much about each puzzle piece to understand how can you architect that machine for any company.
Mike: That's awesome. Mikael, thank you so much for your time. If people are listening to this, they want to find out more about Funnelytics or get in contact with you, what's the best way to do that?
Mikael: Yeah, if you want to get in contact with me, my social media of choice is LinkedIn. It's the only one I use. So find me on LinkedIn, connect with me there. Or if you want to learn more about Funnelytics, then head over to finalytics.io.
Mike: Awesome. Mikael, thank you so much for being a great guest. I really appreciate the conversation.
Mikael: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
BCF ORG Podcast - Marketing Plus with Mike Maynard
Mike Maynard recently joined the BCF ORG – The Business of Business Podcast to share insights from his marketing career and how businesses can improve their marketing strategies. Drawing from hands-on experience, Mike offers tips that you can implement right away.
This episode is for Business Owners and C-Suite Executives looking to improve performance and profitability.
Listen here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/98-marketing-plus-with-mike-maynard/id1514673465?i=1000660874631
A Napier Webinar: Marketing B2B Technology in Japan
Register for Napier's webinar, and discover actionable strategies for European B2B tech companies that want to connect with prospects and engage key decision-makers in Japan.
This webinar features guest speaker Shoko Maki, the CEO of ISB Marketing, a B2B marketing agency based in Tokyo that specializes in helping high-tech enterprises. The webinar will cover:
- Trends shaping B2B tech in Japan, focusing on IT and other high-growth sectors
- Practical methods to identify and engage Japanese decision-makers
- High-impact marketing strategies and channels proven to deliver strong ROI in Japan
- Real-world stories about European tech companies that have successfully entered and scaled in Japan
Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.
Napier Webinar: ‘Marketing B2B Technology in Japan’ Transcript
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Shoko Maki
Mike Maynard
Good morning. Welcome to everyone for a webinar. We're running the webinar at a slightly different time to what we normally do. So good morning to everyone in Europe.
Mike Maynard
It's great to talk to you. I'm really excited about this webinar because we're doing something different today, we have a guest speaker, Shoko Maki. Shoko is from ISB marketing, a Japanese technology marketing agency, and she's going to talk to us about how to promote B2B technology companies in Japan. So she's really an expert. I'm sure she'll tell you a lot about her experience, as well as helping you understand how to navigate the Japanese market, which is obviously very different to either Europe or the US. So Shoko. Welcome to the webinar.
Shoko Maki
Thank you for kind introduction, Mike. I'm Shoko Maki, CEO of ISB marketing. Nice. Me too,
Mike Maynard
right? I think what I should do, you're the expert on Japan. I know a lot of our clients ask about Japan, and really it great to hear from you how as a B2B Company, you can be successful in Japan. So I'll let you run the presentation.
Shoko Maki
Of course. Okay, could you see our presentation? Okay, so let's get started. Do Hey, thank you for listening. I hope you can all hear and see me well. I'm Shoko Maki, CEO of ISB marketing. Over the years, I have met over 100 B2B tech company from the EU and US, many of them share a common challenge, it's very difficult to find The right people in the Japanese market, by right people mean the decision maker, or decision making unit DM use, and yes, I understand why. It seems difficult. You know about the Japanese language barriers and time differences and the different business customers, they are real challenges. But today I want to suggest something important we should adopt our marketing strategy for the Japanese market. By the end of this presentation, where you will have the key to unlock that over to success in Japan. Before we dive in, let me briefly introduce myself, over 20 years of experience in business development for two major Japanese it enterprises. My passion for Europe is deep, and also United States. I lived in Milan with my family for three years traveling extend extensively and discovery, the beauty of its history, nature and people, I love, traveling all worldwide. In my free time, I practice Kyodo, Japanese artery. It's a beautiful martial art, and while I drive to talk about it all day, let's save that for another occasion. In this webinar, we'll cover three key areas. Firstly, I will explain why the Japanese market is so attractive for B2B tech companies. Secondly, I will show you the characteristic of DM use in Japanese enterprises. And thirdly, I will share effective marketing strategies for building relationships with these DMU.
Let's begin with our first topic. Why the Japanese market so attractive? Let's look at some data so. As you can see, Japan's IT investment has been growing year by year.
The manufacturing sector is the largest, similar to Germany's industry structure presenting a huge opportunity. Japan is also making steady progress in digital transformation, in initiatives in 2024 companies engaging men, engaged in DX, reached around 80% a steady increase on par with the US. Finally, Japanese companies are increasing their spending on foreign IT services. Our digital balance of payments has nearly doubled in 10 years. This digital defeat highlights the market openness to over overseas solutions from major foreign tech companies. In summary, Japanese enterprises are actively activated. By adopting advanced foreign technologies. This clearly shows Japan has great growth potential for foreign tech companies. Now let's move on the next part. What are the characteristics of Japan's DMU. Again, I'll focus on the DMU of large corporations in Japan. The first characteristic is consensus based and bottom up processes. This chart is a typical Japanese organizational chart. I call this structure horizontal and vertical lines.
That is, decisions involve multiple departments and levels, with junior staff often gathering information and building consensus upwards. The larger the company, the more complex this becomes. The second characteristic is risk averse. Japanese company take time choosing solutions to avoid various risks like cyber security, data leaks and system failure failures. They prioritize stability and security. The third characteristic is to value long term relationships. Once you search Japanese customer, they often become a liquid customer. You can extend your services to other divisions or even group companies by building trust. For example, one of our HR tech clients started with a successful pilot project in one unit of a Japanese Railway Company. This led to their solution being adopted across other divisions and then to their group companies. This case shows how strong and lasting a partnership can become once established in Japan, the fourth characteristic is that Japanese companies primarily obtain business information from corporate websites. This graph shows websites are the most frequently used source. In contrast, social media like LinkedIn is quite low. We are often asked if LinkedIn works here. How many users do you think LinkedIn has in Japan?
Currently? There are only about 4 million users in Japan, while growing, it's still relatively small for B2B lead generation compared to corporate websites.
Now let's move on the third topic, building relationship. How do we build relationship with DM us again, I will focus on large manufacturers, which are a core industry in Japan.
I propose five best practice. The first is creating a Japanese website and doing SEO game use use corporate websites as their main source. Please remember, translation is not enough. You should localize it for specific industry needs. A well localized website makes you a serious player in Japan. Secondly, content marketing is great for showcasing your expertise. Thought Leadership, white papers and blocks the credibility and demonstrate your value. The third is to use trade fairs. About 600 to 1000 trade fairs are held annually. This photo is at Japan. It week, the one of the most large trade fair focused B2B market. And there are an effective channel for touch points with DM use, choose events your target customer attend and always translate and localize all sales materials. Next is collaborating with local IT partners. Let's look at zoom. You know us based video conference system provider, they prioritize partner sales in Japan, especially for large core enterprises. Do you know what percentage of zoom sales in Japan are through partners?
The answer is more than 50% zoom in Japan has hundreds of partners in Japan forming a strong business ecosystem. This shows the power of local partnerships. The final point is brand awareness through industry specific PR the Japanese it market is highly competitive. Your product needs recognition, press releases and pitches to industry journal are crucial. Native Japanese speakers should handle Media Relations and peer require a long term strategy to build trust. Now I will show you two successful customer case studies that might resonate with many of you here today. First, finago, an Irish FinTech company, like many growing foreign tech firms, they faced the challenge of breaking into a new complex market like Japan and building local credibility. We provided marketing and PR support, securing CEO interviews and creating content. They achieve around 80 price missions, significantly boosting their brand awareness and credibility and successfully acquire new customers and local partners. This demonstrates how a. A targeted approach can quickly establish your presence. Second script guide a Hungarian software development company, they understood that Japanese market entry means navigating unique cultural challenges, especially in communication and sales materials, we analyzed and localized their sales materials, ensuring they resonate with Japanese clients. These localized materials are now effectively used at trade fairs and meetings maximize their businesses opportunities. This highlights the power of culturally culturally sensitive localization for your sales efforts. We have more in depth case studies and can explain our approach in detail. If you are interested in please contact us for one on one meeting. Working with a local marketing. Marketing Agency is the best way to overcome your challenges. It's the key to lab market entry, providing straightforward access to local network of experts, journalists and IT partners. The biggest advantage is developing a go to market strategies that is customized specifically for the Japanese market. You will need an expert native Japanese team who also speak English. Now let's summarize today's presentation. Today we learn about the Japanese it market its unique DM use. Building long term relationships based on trust is essential. Here are five strategies to reach DM use. Create a Japanese website with SEO, use content marketing, participate in trade fairs, partner with local ID companies and run industry specific peer campaigns. Please remember, customization and localization are key. Working with a local marketing agency can significantly help you. Next, I'd like to briefly introduce our company ISB marketing. We are marketing agencies specialized in B2B technology based right here in Tokyo. About 80% of our service are in the B2B sector, and 70% are in the tech sector. They have three core areas of expertise. First, we have a deep understanding of the deep B2B tech field in both Europe and foreign company and in Japan and Japan, we are experienced in SAS, FaaS, HR, tech, FinTech, robotics, IoT, ERP, drone, AI and other cutting edge technologies. Second, we can provide integrated marketing services from planning to execution. Third, we have a strong relationship with Japanese tech media and also IT companies. It successfully introduces our international company customer to local partners and client, and some have already started successful businesses. This is our unique advantage. Our services mainly consist of six areas, content, marketing, public relations, marketing research, website design and management, marketing advice and marketing training. We provide a combination of these service to best meet your need. We are certified partner recognized by the Japanese government and local organization, which underscores our commitment and reliability so. Before I share my final thought, I want to tell you about the special offer just for you. We prepared a valuable ebook focused on the generative AI market in Japan, it's packed with the latest insight entrant. To get your free copy, please send us a direct message on LinkedIn. You can find our LinkedIn profile by scanning QR code on the screen with your smartphone camera. Thank you.
Okay, it looks like we are coming to the end of my presentation. Before we finish, let me share one last thought this is a Japanese phrase, seiza, hi Ju. It comes from Judo martial art I mentioned earlier. Seiza, hi ju means that if you perform in the right way, the alarm will always hit the target. In other words, if you concentrate on shooting with correct form rather than just on hitting the target, the result will always follow. I believe this concept applies to business as well. We often tend to focus on sales goals and profits, but what's truly important is to concentrate on doing things the right way with the right strategy and approach. So let's take the first step towards success together with our tailored marketing strategies, we are confident that we can help you find the right way to succeed in Japan. We look forward to working with you. Thank you so much.
Mike Maynard
Shoko. Thank you so much. That was fascinating, I think, a very short time to talk about an awful lot of things. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to put them into the Q and A or into the chat. I do have a couple of questions. First, I mean, from my point of view, when you were talking in the presentation, you mentioned a lot about localization rather than just translation. So can you talk about the difference between translating for Japan and localizing for Japan?
Shoko Maki
Thank you for your yes question and yes difference between differences between transcends vision and localization. First, I will explain the difference between translation and localization. Translation is simply changing words from one language to another. The goal is to keep the meaning the same, but in a different language. For example, if we translate a software menu from English to Japanese, Japanese users can read it in their own language. This makes the correct content understandable, but it doesn't necessarily make it feel natural or easy to use in Japanese context. Localization, however, goes beyond just changing world. Let me. Let me give an example to showcase of SAP, a German software company provides ERP enterprise resource planning system worldwide. SAP has a high market share in Japan, especially for large companies, the key to their continued success is localization. For example, they've added futures that fits Japanese accounting standards and tax regulations. Japanese businesses often issue invoice definitely for. Example. So SAP includes function to manage these processes smoothly and provide support in Japanese. They adjust the product to match the culture legal requirement and business needs of a specific Japanese entities. It includes translation, but it all also cover things like adjusting current currency, symbols, data, format, usability and adding compliance features that are needed in that particular country. And furthermore, I introduced example from zoom, but it's also SAP understand the business structural difference and from business ecosystem partner link with over 100 local ID partners and sales and technical support to them. So to sum up, translation is about changing language, but localization adapts a product to make it feel local and user usable.
Mike Maynard
Thank you. I think that that's a great summary. Shoko, thank you. Another question is you talked about LinkedIn, and I know anyone who's tried to run, for example, paid campaigns in LinkedIn in Japan will know that the number of LinkedIn users in Japan is very small. Do you have any insights why that is?
Shoko Maki
Yeah, thank you for good question. I think I'll share my insights. There are, I think there are several reasons. Firstly, LinkedIn actually not well known by business people here, compared to Facebook, but Facebook also users is decreasing. In contrast Instagram and YouTube is increasing just now, actually, there are Japanese business people around us who have never heard of LinkedIn name, or some people think it's just a job hunting tool. Secondly, LinkedIn requires you know real names. And some Japanese business people do not like disclose personal information about their career, such as educational and professional background. And moha, some Japanese companies, especially traditional ones, restrict employees from disclosing business topics to avoid the risk of leaking confidential information. So we can provide yes and we can provide the data we use of social media platform LinkedIn, 2025 this year. So if you interested in please ask us if maybe.
Mike Maynard
Thank you. That's interesting. Obviously, a very different culture in Japan regarding social media to Europe and the US. I have one last question. If you've got time Shoko, one topic you haven't mentioned, I'm sure people would be interested to know about this is cold calling. Is cold calling effective in Japan?
Shoko Maki
That is, yeah, very interesting question. In Japan, actually, cold calling is known as one of the traditional way to generate generate lead, but it is not, I think, effect not effectively in B2B, because Japanese companies tend to be cautious about unsolicited or authorized calls from unknown businesses, and yes, I emphasized on building trust, so cold calling without clear appointment tend to be avoided. Furthermore, with the increase in remote working after COVID-19 telephone communication is becoming less common. Therefore, in Japan, we recommend building
Mike Maynard
for everyone listening. I'd really recommend you go to the ISB marketing LinkedIn page and you request the. Report on generative AI Shoko. Thank you so much for being a presenter. I've really enjoyed it.
Shoko Maki
Thank you once again for your time, and I just wanted to say a big thank you. You Mike and Napier team for giving us this amazing opportunity, even if even I could not your faces audiences, but I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you.
Unlocking Demand Generation: Strategies from Alex Alexin at Insightful
Alex Alexin, Head of Demand Generation at Insightful, shares how she found her way into marketing and ultimately into demand gen. She unpacks what demand generation really means today, beyond leads, and why data, analytics, and operations are at the core of effective strategy.
Learn how Insightful uses behavioral insights to refine personas, the evolving role of employee productivity tools, and how aligning sales and marketing on metrics drives better outcomes. Alex also shares a standout campaign that cut the sales cycle by 52% and highlights the value of testing, iteration, and curiosity in modern B2B marketing.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Insightful
Insightful is a workforce analytics and productivity platform designed for modern teams looking to optimize performance, boost operational efficiency, and leverage data-driven workforce management. By integrating real-time activity tracking, behavioral analytics, and automated time mapping, Insightful simplifies employee monitoring, remote team oversight, and resource allocation, all within a single, intuitive platform.
Known for promoting productivity transparency, Insightful replaces scattered reports and multiple tools with a unified, real-time visibility layer that connects daily work directly to meaningful business outcomes.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Alex Alexin
00:00:42 - Alex's Career Journey
00:03:14 - Understanding Employee Monitoring
00:04:04 - The Purpose of Insightful's Software
00:05:36 - Reframing Employee Monitoring
00:06:15 - Marketing Approach Overview
00:06:33 - Defining Demand Generation
00:08:11 - Identifying Target Personas
00:12:06 - Balancing Brand Building and Demand Gen
00:12:23 - The Full Funnel Perspective
00:18:04 - SaaS vs. Other Industries
00:21:32 - Successful Campaigns and Learnings
00:24:25 - Key Marketing Advice
00:25:40 - Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Quotes
"I truly believe that the heart of demand generation is the operations behind it." – Alex Alexin, Head of Demand Generation at Insightful
"It's all about how work happens and how you can really help your workforce do better or those workflows and those processes be better." – Alex Alexin, Head of Demand Generation at Insightful
Follow Alex:
Alex Alexin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandraalexin/
Insightful website: https://www.insightful.io/
Insightful on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/insightfulio/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We’d also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast – The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Alex Alexin at Insightful
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Alex Alexin
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Alex Alexin. Alex is the Head of Demand Generation at Insightful. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.
Alex: Thank you so much for having me.
Mike: It's great to have you on the podcast. What we'd like to do first of all is just let you give us a bit of background. So, do you want to tell us a little bit about your career and how you've ended up at Insightful?
Alex: Yeah, I would love to. So, my career in marketing started very randomly. I went to school for psychology. I was one of those kids that thought I was going to be a psychologist. And then life happened. I fell into marketing as one of three jobs that I had at the time trying to make ends meet as one did in their early 20s. And I immediately fell in love with it. After my first marketing job, which was this very small book recommendation website, I actually ended up over at Prequin, which funny enough, they just recently sold to BlackRock. They took a chance on me, and I started there. The best part of that was that Mark O'Hare, he did not want to spend money on software. So, we had an internally built CRM. And with that came its usual challenges, if anyone's ever dealt with that before. But having to work with our engineers to really understand What data I needed and why and what metrics I needed and why and how to be able to get that. I mean that just kicked off my love of demand gen. I truly believe that the heart of demand generation is the operations behind it and how everything works and the data and the analytics to see what's working and what's not. So, from there, I spent five years there just having a great time. And then I went, and I tried my hand at a 17-person company as head of marketing, their first head of marketing, which also was a lot of fun. What I've learned throughout looking at my career, which has been longer than I would like to admit, years-wise, is that I really like going to a company at a certain size and a certain place for me to be able to do and build. So yes, I've had these Head of Demand Gen, Head of Marketing, Director of Demand Gen roles, but the reality is that I am the one going in and I am building out HubSpot or I'm building out Salesforce. I'm building out those attribution models and really understanding what data we need to capture and why to make sure that all of the things we do, we know if they're working or not. And we know if they're working or not quickly. All of that then led me down a what has now been a very long HR tack in the B2B SaaS world career. And so, yeah, I'm currently at Insightful. I would say that one of the main drivers that brought me here was curiosity. It was curiosity about the software, trying to understand what is it that employee monitoring software does. And everyone thinks it's this big brother thing, but it's not. It's all about how work happens and how you can really help your either workforce do better, or those workflows and those processes be better. So, it's been a really fun journey here.
Mike: So, I'm going to go back and talk a little bit about Demand Gen in a minute, but I've got to ask you about employee monitoring because I think, like everyone else, you kind of wince a bit when you hear about it. So, do you want to tell us a little bit more about why people use Insightful and what it helps them do?
Alex: Yeah, I mean, let's go to the very base of employee monitoring. I too, I wince. But the reality is, and this is going to sound so ridiculous, but the reality is that it's just like the force in Star Wars. There is a dark side and there is a light side. Yes, you can use software like this for bad, for trying to weed out slackers and who's not working and who's not working from where they said they were. That is not what we are here to do. We empower our customers to be able to find those workflow processes that aren't working. Where are things dropping? Why are they dropping? How can you fix that? And the way that we do that is through being able to track things like the best way I could describe this is think about a customer support team. Ticket gets opened, certain ticket types. How long has that ticket been opened? How many applications did someone need to go into to fix that ticket and close that ticket? Hell, how many actual people needed to open that ticket? So, we can actually automatically capture all of that and say, oh, hey, listen, for your billing questions, you have your people going into four different applications when they should probably only be going into one, maybe two. And now you're being able to see where these workflows are breaking down and be able to create best practices and training. So, I would say that's one of many use cases that I have found here.
Mike: I absolutely love that example because it's completely turning around the company spying on the employee’s kind of story. And effectively, it's the company finding the mistakes the company has made, which I think is brilliant.
Alex: Yeah, and I would say that we are one of the very few that we have an employee dashboard. You see what you're doing. You see all of your work. We obviously use it here. I would say I love going into it. I love seeing, again, how work happens, what's going on, what are all the different applications that are being used? What applications are we paying for that aren't being used and save money there? So yeah, it's definitely, it's not what people think it is.
Mike: That's awesome. And I'm sure people will be really interested in the product. But I'd like to move on to talk about your marketing approach. And the first thing I'd like to start with is demand gen. People mean a lot of different things when they talk about demand generation. So, do you want to tell me what you think it means and particularly what it means in your current role?
Alex: Yes, that's such a good question and I agree with you. The name of this has changed so much over the last 15 years of what it is that I do. I would go back to the beginning of what I said. I think that demand generation is very much analytical and its operations focused and it's understanding how everything connects to itself. So I take content, and I take product marketing, and I take information from sales, and I put that together in a way to try to reach our target customers at the right place at the right time with the right messaging. But the real core that I feel it is, is how do I track that? How do I make sure that I know who I am reaching, when I am reaching them, what timestamps I am capturing? What timestamps am I maybe by mistake, you know, overwriting versus just showing a history of why does that make a difference? I think the demand generation is also understanding the differences in your audiences. You know, if you're marketing to SMB versus mid-market versus enterprise, the data that you're capturing and what you're looking at and what's going to be important is going to most likely be different. Sales cycles, they're obviously shorter on the SMB side, they're longer on the enterprise side. For enterprise, do you really need to track every marketing touch and every sales touch in the same way that you would for SMB? Some may disagree with me, but I feel that demand gen, it's really about the data, the analytics, and how it all connects.
Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, starting from what some people view as the end game, which is the data, it's a really interesting way to do it. I think one of the things that always people struggle with the demand chain is who's the right person to reach, who's a good lead, who's a bad lead, if you want to make it really simple. So how did you decide on the personas that you target and really focus on reaching them and not other people?
Alex: That's a great question and it's very topical for what we're doing at Insightful right now. So, when I first joined about a year ago, we had an idea. We had an idea that we were targeting operations, IT, HR leaders at certain size companies. We believed that we knew what their pain points were and what their jobs to be done were and how we fit into it. We started testing that with messaging and trying to hit people up through paid advertising, LinkedIn, Google, nurturing the email. Our database is huge. Let's see if we can engage them. it wasn't really hitting the mark. And I would say that what really became interesting is once we finally filled our product marketing area, we were able to get more research into what these people were doing every day and how the differences were not actually by job title in the way that we had thought. It's more of a behavioral persona. which is very difficult to target. So now it's like, how do we figure out what those behaviors are? So what we're working on right now, and it's not as though it's some trade secret, but what we're working on right now is a maturity ladder of how to speak to different people depending on the behavior. that they are exhibiting. And so, we're going to start very just right in the middle and we're going to bring them through a questionnaire. Who are you? What are you looking to achieve? What is this? And obviously we have to do that with giving them some sort of either thought leadership piece or just something that they'll feel good about and we have some ideas on what it is that we want to do there. But I really think that what's interesting about here and this is different than some of the other places I've been to that had their personas built out and they were very clear. that this has shown me that what you think your software does, who you think your persona is, very well may change. And that's OK. And I think that there are some really interesting ways to be able to see that you do have to relook at it and see that maybe the market is going in a different way.
Mike: And that's really interesting, presumably because you've got behavioral personas. there's a customer journey or a set of customer journeys you see that maybe are less dependent upon what role the individual has and much more dependent upon the situation of the company, is that right?
Alex: Yes, that is definitely right. It's the situation of the company; it is what that person is looking to solve for. Some people, specifically for our software, some people are looking just to solve actual tracking, let's see, what tech is being used, what tech isn't being used. That's all we care about. And then you have other personas who care about how to optimize their workforce. What's that workload distribution look like? You know, You have a gigantic support center of 500 people, all different teams. One is doing much better than the other. Why is that? Is that because of certain ticket types that are going to them, the amount of tickets that are going to them? So, with that, all of those different things, you cannot put the same messaging to those two people.
Mike: And if we're talking about messaging, I mean, let's make this a bit broader. Demand gen people are sometimes painted as just focusing on leads and just like it's contacts, that's it. But how do you think the company needs to balance, you know, building the brand and building reputation versus some of the more bottom of the funnel activities?
Alex: That's a really great question. I think that sometimes people talk about brand too quickly. That's usually a problem that I have seen. Also, I would say that not every company needs to have a recognized brand. I'm sure there's a lot of brand marketers that I've worked with that are probably cursing my name right now because I am not sure that brand plays as big of a factor depending on the company. What I would say, though, is that with demand gen and just the way of thinking about it, you have to be very open to it being different everywhere you are, what demand gen means. And what I mean by that is you can walk into a company that has a very strong top of funnel. They're already doing very well. So, some people would say demand gen is all top of funnel. Like you said, it's all leads. Well, maybe it's not. Maybe now your issue is you're getting a ton of leads, but you don't know what to do with them. That too is demand gen. How are we going to nurture them? How are we going to weed out the ones that we don't want? I would also say that one of the biggest issues that I find is that a lot of demand gen marketers get pigeonholed for just that pre, not even pre-sale, but pre-opportunity creation. While we really have to look at the full funnel, I need to understand what I call suspect, which is, let's say, an email address with no name attached, no anything. I need to understand suspect to demo requested, to opportunity opened, to opportunity closed, and beyond. Let's talk now really going into retention. adoption, renewal, all of this stuff. And I do think that a lot of places are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're marketing, you're demand gen. You only think about leads. I'm like, well, if I'm only thinking about leads, then it's going to skew everything. Because then I won't know the quality of the leads. I won't know how they're working down the funnel. I won't be able to tell you a sales cycle that we would be able to predict from different channels, whether that be events or inbound or webinars, whatever it may be. And then from there, how am I supposed to forecast anything? And again, maybe people are thinking, oh, demand gen doesn't forecast, demand gen doesn't, you know, marketing doesn't do that. In the B2B SaaS space, yes, we do. We wear many hats. And I would say that we are very close to Rev Ops because the majority of these companies, we don't have Rev Ops. And so, marketing thinks about it. So yeah, I think that we have to think about the entire funnel, not just leads.
Mike: But that comes back to data. And I think one of the things that a lot of people find is getting that data and pulling it all together is incredibly difficult. I mean, how do you manage to pull data from presumably disparate systems and get it all into one sensible location?
Alex: Well, first, you have to be okay with knowing that it will never be perfect. It will never, ever be perfect. And every single company I've started at, I've been warned, the data here is terrible. The data here is dirty." I'm like, okay, it can't be any worse than any other place. And it's not. It's really not. It's funny that everyone has this idea that their data is the worst. I would say that what you need to first start with is specifically alignment with the sales team. Let's make sure that we're having the same conversation and we're using the same terminology. What is a lead? what is an MQL, an SQL? What is the funnel that we want to discuss? Once you have those definitions, then it makes things much easier. Our definition of a lead is most people's definition of an MQL. That is someone who has filled out the demo form or our free trial form. And so that makes things fairly easy. And then it starts to go into, okay, let's start talking about personas and segmentation and different Do we have our sales teams? Do we have our SMB team and our mid-market and enterprise team?" And I think that, again, it all starts with that alignment. And I know that for years it's always been sales versus marketing, sales versus marketing. Marketing coming in and saying, we're bringing all the great leads and sales saying, no, they're garbage. Yeah, that certainly has happened. But if you started off with a conversation of like, all right, what do we consider a lead? Let's talk it through. it starts to help that data cleanse work. And then, I mean, obviously whatever system you're using, whether it's HubSpot or it's Salesforce, I would say especially to the marketers, learn the backend. You have to learn, and this comes back again, you have to know the operations behind it. You have to understand that if you turn off this workflow, what's gonna happen? or if you turn on that workflow, what's going to happen? It is the most important thing, and it is really about thinking about every potential little angle.
Mike: And when you're thinking about that, do you think it's actually easier to do that in a SaaS environment than maybe in, say, an engineering company? I mean, SaaS companies have a reputation of really having been able to tie in the whole customer journey, whereas when you're selling complex engineering parts, sometimes it's a lot more difficult.
Alex: I've spent my whole career in B2B SaaS, so this is kind of all I know. I would say that what I find to be difficult is having all of the people necessary agreeing. And then not having people understand that just because we agreed on this definition today, that doesn't mean that this is gonna be the definition forever. It can change, that's okay. I spent four years at a company named Ease, it was Ease Central when I first joined, and we had decided that our North Star metric, not just for the marketing team, but for the company, was marketing influence. We thought that that was a pretty good term. Now it was, what is marketing influence? And how do we get buy-in from everyone? And we were like, okay, marketing influence, we can speak to the board of investors and say, it is an opportunity that had a marketing touch within 90 days of it opening. Cool, great, easy. Then we could talk to our VP of sales and say, okay, listen, here are the actual rules. And we built it out in Salesforce. If the marketing touch happened within 90 days of the opportunity opening and a sales touch didn't happen before then, it's marketing influenced. And then again, that definition, once we started doing the reporting against it, that definition changed. every quarter for almost four quarters until we got it perfect because first we were like, okay, marketing influence contacts, that's great and then we realized the numbers were skewed because you've got 10 contacts influenced but only one opportunity because those 10 contacts were at one company. Okay, let's now change it. We've got to go back. We've got to redo everything, and we've got to make it unique accounts. Okay, how are we going to watch unique accounts happen? Okay, let's redo and that was literally going back and reworking every single Salesforce report, which I will say my number one If anyone takes anything away from this conversation, when you create a report, whether it is in Salesforce or HubSpot or anywhere that you are doing it, use the description. Write out the description because you may think that you will remember what it is that you did and how your brain was working. You won't. So, I had 15, 20, 25 different reports that all had a similar name and I had to try to figure out which one it was. That was horrible. And then from there we realized that it wasn't just unique account that we had to do. We had to do a cool down period because now we were double counting accounts within a quarter and we needed to make sure that we were only counting it once, and that's where that 90-day cool-down period came. Iterations, be okay with it. Be open to it. Yes, it's going to be a lot of work. Yes, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board but also remember that there's really only a small group of people that you'll be working with to really figure this out. I'm not going to go over to my head of sales and talk to him and say, okay, I rethought this, I redid all of these reports, because he doesn't care. And that's okay. It's once I get to the end that I'm like, all right, here's the report. That's what he cares about.
Mike: I love that. It's fascinating hearing about some of the challenges you face. But also, what we want to talk about some of the successes. So, do you want to tell us about, you know, some of the campaigns you've seen that, you know, for whatever reason have been really super successful?
Alex: Yeah, so actually, again, at ease, I did this incredible project with our product marketing manager, where she was trying to rework our personas, and we were both working on life cycle stages. So, trying to understand the entry and exit criteria of each life cycle stage by our persona. So, I did all of the data part of it, right? I was pulling every sales and marketing touchpoint and her and I were kind of going through it to figure out Where are those intersections? What are we looking at? And after, let's see, that data, again, I want everyone to understand none of this happened overnight. This, just going through the data analysis took like two months. So that's okay. But after getting that data, then we were able to start to pinpoint the different pre-opportunity opening places by persona that we could actually start playing with. And what that looked like was depending on, and this was for them because of what our personas were broken out as, depending on your job title and the page that you first entered our funnel into, we put you into a choose your own adventure nurture program. based off of what we knew people who started in that journey went to. And we got you to places faster than you would on your own. We ended up actually being able to bring the sales cycle down by about 52%. And again, that took three quarters to get there, but we did it.
Mike: I think a lot of people, if they brought the sales cycle down by 5% would be pretty impressed. So, 52% is amazing. And that really, I think, shows the value of what you're saying about not only get the data, but use it as well.
Alex: Use it, test it, iterate on it. I will never forget as well, that first nurture program, we realized that we, by mistake, put the same people into three different programs because we missed something, because we were building it all out ourselves in Marketo. It is okay to mess up. The whole point is that those little mess ups, you're going to start to think about all of those little things as you move forward, the more mess ups that you see. And then you will have fewer and fewer and you will get to that end faster and faster. And you'll be able to see that progress faster.
Mike: Yeah, I think there's very few overnight successes that didn't take a long time.
Alex: Exactly. Even a rebrand, you know, think about a rebrand. I still get a twitch thinking about it. It's not as though one day you flip that switch and you're like, hey, our new name is Ease and every single piece of content now says Ease. No, I bet you anything that years later you can still find stuff that says Ease Central out there because we missed something.
Mike: Absolutely. Alex, it's been fascinating talking to you about this. Before you go, there's a couple of quick questions we like to ask everybody. So, the first one is, What's the best piece of marketing advice that's ever been given to you?
Alex: Don't be afraid to fail. That is definitely it. Don't be afraid to fail.
Mike: Awesome. Simple and very true. Love it. The next thing, and I'm kind of thinking you might repeat the advice now, is if you're talking to a young person who was just embarking on a career in marketing, what would your advice to them be?
Alex: Test everything. Click on everything. You're not going to break anything. Don't be afraid. That was always my fear early in my career, that if I touch something or if I ask something that I'd be afraid of what the answer was or maybe I shouldn't be asking that. Don't be afraid. Just do it. What's the worst that's going to happen?
Mike: I love it. I love it. What a positive way to end. I'm sure a lot of people have really enjoyed this interview. If people would like to contact you and maybe ask you some questions or follow up what you've said, what's the best way of getting in touch with you?
Alex: Yeah, I would say find me on LinkedIn, send me a connection request. It's Alexandra Lexin and I'd love to get in touch with anybody.
Mike: Alex, it's been great. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.
Alex: Thank you so much for having me.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Why B2B Needs to Embrace Experimentation - Convert.com
Eddie Casado, Affiliate and Technology Partnerships Manager at Convert.com, an A/B testing tool, joins the podcast to explore the world of B2B marketing and conversion rate optimization.
Eddie highlights how Convert.com is carving out a distinct space in the A/B testing world, emphasizes the challenges B2B marketers face, particularly around internal bureaucracy and slower adoption of testing strategies, and why agility remains a key differentiator.
Mike and Eddie discuss the critical role of curiosity in navigating today’s marketing landscape and how Eddie’s diverse background informs his approach.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Convert.com
Convert is a privacy-first A/B testing and web experimentation platform built for fast-growing businesses and agencies. Known for its robust integrations, flexible experimentation framework, and ethical data practices, Convert helps teams optimize digital experiences without compromising user trust.
About Eddie Casado
Eduardo “Eddie” Casado is a systems thinker, builder, and connector who thrives at the intersection of growth, product, and partnerships. With an MBA and years of cross-functional experience, he’s known for turning ambiguity into traction and having a strong bias for action.
Curious by default and strategic by design, Eddie shares his wins, experiments, and lessons in public, helping other operators’ level up. He’s drawn to honest conversations about what works (and what doesn’t), and brings a deep respect for data, people, and long games.
Currently leading Affiliate & Technology Partnerships at Convert.com, Eddie is most energized when creating repeatable systems, learning from peers, and unlocking compounding results through aligned collaboration.
Time Stamps
00:00:17 - Guest Introduction: Eddie Casado
00:00:43 - Eddie's Career Background
00:03:40 - What Makes Convert.com Unique
00:06:59 - Maturity in MarTech and the Role of AI
00:09:23 - Challenges in B2B vs. B2C Marketing
00:10:35 - The Need for Improved Conversion Rates in B2B
00:14:04 - The Shift in B2B Customer Behavior
00:18:04 - Convert's Marketing Strategy
00:22:32 - The Role of AI in Marketing
00:24:26 - Best Marketing Advice and Career Tips
Quotes
"B2B needs to realize that people are not on LinkedIn to be sold on." Eddie Casado, Affiliate and Technology Partnerships Manager at Convert.com
"The more value you can provide, the more top of mind you are. At the end of the day, the more consideration you'll have." Eddie Casado, Affiliate and Technology Partnerships Manager at Convert.com
"I think we're just tired in B2B. We're tired of getting pitch slapped. We're tired of getting AI slapped with a generic message." Eddie Casado, Affiliate and Technology Partnerships Manager at Convert.com
Follow Eddie:
Eddie Casado on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddie-casado/
Convert.com website: https://www.convert.com/
Radiate B2B on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/convert-com/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Eddie Casado at Convert.com
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Eddie Casado
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Eddie Casado. Eddie is the Affiliate and Technology Partnerships Manager at Convert.com. Welcome to the podcast, Eddie.
Eddie: Thank you for having me.
Mike: Well, it's great to have you on. I'm really excited. Before we get into talking about Convert.com and what you do there, maybe you can give us a little bit of background about your career and what's actually led up to your current position.
Eddie: Of course, happy to do that. So I started my career, I would say very early in my life. I was just mentioning that I had a background in music and audio. So I started in radio as a radio host and producer in my hometown in Venezuela. And, you know, there I discovered advertising as well and doing jingles and cutting up music, et cetera, et cetera. So that's where my passion kind of ignited. Soon thereafter, you know, I was already a musician, so I had a strong background in music and everything that needed to do with creative and just that I'm very creative by nature. So I, you know, I started my career thinking that I could be, you know, an engineer and live off of having a studio. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Although I did have some success in that arena, I got nominated for a Latin Grammy back in 2013, and I won a Latin Grammy for assisting an album for Alejandro Sanz back when I was living in Miami. But I soon realized that what I wanted to do wasn't just that. And, you know, I started going to school in communications, then learned and reignited that love for advertising and then went all in and got my bachelor's in advertising and sociology. started my career doing account executive at an agency in Miami called Hispanic Group. And yeah, and then just another agency tapped me in and I started doing social media. Well, this is 2014. I got to live tweet the World Cup for ESPN Deportes. And yeah, but, you know, I started doing social media, doing digital. And little by little, I started dipping my toes into more things. And I started doing paid when, you know, you wanted to do just page likes campaigns. and evolved from there on to do product, to do product marketing, analytics, more advertising, Google, PPC, et cetera, et cetera. I can't sit still. I'm very curious. So anything you put in front of me, I want to learn and I want to master. And yeah, and then little by little, I then landed at Mouselo, which was my previous role. I was the head of growth marketing there. led the company. I was the second marketing hire, 12th marketing hire in the company, left when we were more than 50, double digits in growth, and then came on the opportunity of joining Convert, which is an A-B testing platform that helps experimentation professionals in the conversion rate optimization space to improve conversion rate across their journey on websites.
Mike: Well, that's amazing and a really interesting career. Very varied. I love that. You've mentioned a little bit about what Convert.com does. So I've got to say, there's a lot of A-B testing tools, a lot of optimization tools. So why is Convert special? What do you do that's unique?
Eddie: So what I have to say is that with the sunset of Google Optimize, which was the go-to tool, which was free, you know, belonged to Google. And with that sunset, Convert has actually taken center stage as one of the go-to platforms, if not the go-to platform. for experimentation professionals. And what we do really well is that we came about as an A-B testing tool. Our founder, Dennis, started this as a personalization tool and then little by little hashed out a lot of features and ended up creating a product that focused on empowering experimentation on web services. So we have been here since the beginning. which is a lot to say considering that as fast as they come, they also go when it comes to new platforms, as you're mentioning. So I think that what we do really well is that we have a superb support team and a very stable product that has been battle tested through the years to provide the best experience not only for marketers and CRO professionals, but also For customers that are unknowingly being part of experiments that lead to better experiences, right? Most of the tools, I mean, now with technology you see it less and less, but a lot of the tools often don't realize the impact experimentation has on the user experience. And that's something that Dennis and the team have been focusing a lot on, having anti-flickering technology, not affecting loading speeds, making sure that there are these things in place so that whenever you're joining a page, you know, you don't experience anything. You know, that flickering of like, oh, there was one page, and now there's another page. That doesn't happen with Convert. So that's what I can say on the surface, strong team, strong culture, bootstrap, been around for ages, super stable, which are things that customers don't realize how much it impacts when they establish a relationship with a platform like Convert.
Mike: I love that. I think it's an indication now we're getting more and more guests from MarTech companies talking about the importance of quality, reliability, good support, rather than just throwing lots of new features. I think it's a real positive reflection that Martek is becoming mature. Do you agree? I agree.
Eddie: I think that maturity is also one of those things that it's hard to pinpoint when you're ready for a tool or to experiment. Most of the time, this maturity comes at a huge loss, which is not having time. And sometimes you're stumbling into a new technology because of the needs of a company, etc, etc. So that's I think that yes, we're maturing in more tech. The problem is that technology is advancing so fast that our maturity levels are not catching up as fast as technology. For example, in my day-to-day work, I am embracing AI as much as I can. You know, it's great, but the moment I learn one LLM, there is a new one out there, or there is a new thing that I have to learn. There's a genetic AI and tomorrow is going to be a new thing. So I literally don't have enough time in the day to mature through the things that I am learning, which, you know, I think it's the rule of the game. especially for when I'm a generalist, even though I know things really well, like paid and strategy and those things, I'm a generalist at the end of the day. So I try to know as much as I can about something so that I can speak about it. That's kind of my threshold. So when I can speak about it comfortably, I feel like, OK, I know this enough to move on. So at least that's how I keep up.
Mike: I love it. I think it's a great approach of dealing with all the change we're facing in marketing. I'm just interested. I mean, you mentioned ConvertNow is one of the go-to tools. I mean, who would be your customers?
Eddie: So our customers are companies, small business, mid-market, and enterprises, although our sweet spot is in small business and mid-market. experimentation professionals, that is CRO professionals, conversion rate optimization professionals, people that are dealing with optimizing experiences, right? When you get to the bottom of it, our customer is just looking out to improve their conversion rate. That is our customer, which is very, very broad if you think about it. Because at the end of the day, what I found, at least in my experience, is that growing right now, unless you have a huge pocket, it's really, really hard because it's so competitive out there. And the things that will make you succeed are things that are often overlooked, like having a strong brand, having strong positioning, knowing how to talk to your customers. having the right product market fit and targeting the right personas and companies. Those things are unfortunately so for a lot of companies, not the first thing that they look at. So they rely on paid and they rely on this other, let's call it synthetic methods for growth. that at the end of the day, come back and bite you because you are shackled. You are essentially a slave to paid. You're essentially a slave to other activations that are not necessarily feeding your organic growth. So when that stops, everything comes to a standstill. So having that challenge of not growing as fast because you need big pockets or deep pockets and not having the patience or the, well, not maybe the patience, but the, how do you call it? The runway to effectively invest in these things that are slow burning. Then you look at, okay, so I'm getting this traffic, which is how this all started, by the way. This is how Dennis started out. He had his own business and moved to Mexico and the 2008 crisis hit in. And all of a sudden he lost 50% of the traffic for his business. And with that, his revenue, And he needed to figure out a way to convert two times more than what he was doing before he lost all that traffic. That's how it started. So that's kind of the crux of the issue. Companies that are essentially looking out to improve their conversion rate because of some of these challenges that they're facing. Now, there are other companies that are more mature and most likely bigger that have or are looking into promoting an experimentation culture within the company. And that's when a big company will actually reach out to convert experts or specialists or CRO people, heads of digital, and set up a program in-house. And that's when we would come in.
Mike: I mean, that's really interesting. I think, you know, your story about Dennis outlines the real benefit of maximizing that conversion rate on the website. I think, you know, the perception is, and maybe this is true, maybe not, that perhaps B2B lags behind B2C, particularly B2C e-commerce, in terms of, you know, running A-B testing and really using CRA. Do you think that's fair?
Eddie: I would say it is. I would say it is. And I have a few ideas as to why this happens. B2C is known to be faster, less red tape, smaller operations, more agile. The bigger the company gets, the more red tape it adds. It's inevitable, just because you have to keep status quo. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. You can't shy away from it. As much as you want to be agile, as much as you want to run agile, The reality of it is that at the end of the day, a bigger operation requires more guardrails. Whereas in B2C, which are often smaller, I'm not saying that all B2Cs are the same way. There are B2Cs that are huge, thousands of employees. But it's just a matter of how B2B and B2C starts when they are starting the business. And unfortunately for B2B, they lag because it just requires more muscle to put together something like this in motion. If you're B2C, and maybe I'm wrong, but at least in my experience. It's different on how you come across experimentation and do experimentation. But I fail at putting together an experimentation program for a company that wasn't growing. The traffic wasn't there. SEO was taking a long time to cook. We weren't able to grow our traffic for the past year. And I just said like, hey, listen, if we can't grow the traffic, we need to grow our conversion. So let's set up a conversion. I called it, what was it? A conversion hub inside the company. And I just need this tool so that I can run this experiments and get this out of the way. And I wasn't able to achieve that. And I had been spending a lot of time in that company. Like I had already built the credibility and the capital to say, like, this is the bet that is going to take us to that next level. And unfortunately, it wasn't a huge company, but it didn't take off because stakeholders didn't believe in that. Stakeholders weren't looking for something like that. Because it meant that somebody in the team had to now take care of another vertical within the team. So it's just, that's just, you know, the, how do you call it? The share game. You know, you pull one share and somebody falls and then somebody else takes it and it's just like, you're dancing around and it's hard. Whereas in B2C it's more normal to have this kind of environment in which everybody's wearing the same hat and everybody's trying to sell and everybody's trying to do the same thing. So I think, and also the fact that e-commerce is inherently set up to do experimentation and A-B testing, it's just one of those industries that you can't go wrong with it. Whereas when you go to SaaS, It's not the same without adding the extra challenge of having enough people visiting the site and running enough experiments with enough time to get to something that is statistically significant. And now I'm getting a lot into the details, but that's just my thinking is that it's just easier because operations are smaller, maybe easier to adopt new technologies. easier to find out what is the next thing to do in order to improve. Whereas in B2B, everything needs to go through the channels. And in B2C, you can make the argument that they also need to go through channels. But in my experience, having done freelancing, having been involved in operations that are smaller, it's just easier. They hire you to do something and they trust you to do it. In B2B, it's slightly different depending on the type of culture that you're in.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think the bureaucracy in B2B marketing teams is always a challenge. There's always more of a fear of losing what you've got rather than a hope of gaining more. I mean, do you think that actually B2B is going to change? I mean, we're seeing a lot of research saying now that B2B customers are spending less time with sales, more time, you know, doing what's called self directed research. So do you think B2B companies are going to realize they have to improve these conversion rates now, because that matters even more than it did before? They have to improve marketing, in essence.
Eddie: Yeah, no, I mean, it's the truth. It's the hard truth. We've neglected, and I consider myself part of that bunch, we've neglected the fact that people are not consuming content to buy something. They are looking for value. What I found on social, what I found in my strategies is that the more value you can provide, the more top of mind you are. And at the end of the day, the more consideration you'll have. It's just a simple funnel. A lot of the B2B companies nowadays are just trying to sell you from the awareness layer. They're just trying to sell, sell, sell, because they need, again, back to that bureaucracy that you were talking about, they need to justify the person. They need to justify the channel. They need to justify the numbers. But there are some things, like there are some things so hard to justify that you can only do it if you turn everything off. And I'm known to take risks, and I'm known to be bold, and I'm known to be the one that says, what happens if we just decide to shut everything off? And thankfully, I've had people around me that have been like, yeah, let's just do it, see what happens. And I can tell you, two out of three times that I've done that experiment, I've found that my marketing is not just affecting the channel, but the overall marketing strategy and impact. That means organic searches, direct traffic, referral traffic, social traffic, etc, etc. It's just not attributed properly, which is, you know, the issue of our for this decade and the decades to come. But it is having an impact. So back to back to your question. B2B needs to realize that people are not on LinkedIn to be sold on. Also technology, again, technology comes back and it's a great help, but it's also a detriment to our ability to actually sell. I cannot tell you how many times I get pitch slapped on LinkedIn by just accepting a connection request. Cold email stopped working. Apparently now cold calling is taking off again. And I don't know if it's a fad or I don't know if it's somebody trying to, you know, fuel that stream. But I think it's just they're tired. We're bombarded every single day with useless content for my moment, for my persona, really bad targeting. Again, there are so many bad examples out there of targeting that I'm getting ads from not a clinical trial, but a pill for something. And I go in because I get really frustrated when I see these things. And I go in and I try. So what is it targeting for this? And it's just like anybody in Latin America. I was like, OK, so whoever's running this account, man, it's don't really know what they're doing. You know, so I think we're just tired in B2B. We're tired. That's my feeling, at least. I'm tired of getting pitch slapped. I'm tired of getting A.I. slapped with a generic message. I'm tired of the calling. Hi, dear. You know, like that's not the way you do business. You know, I'm tired of that. So whenever I accept somebody, if I get pitch slapped, I just call it out and say, OK, I'm not interested. But that takes time. So. That's what I would say. We are tired of getting sold on and we just want value. That's why we spend time elsewhere. That's why we spend time on Instagram, on TikTok and these things. And we level up outside of the normal channels.
Mike: I mean, that's really interesting. I think, you know, anyone in marketing who's on LinkedIn has, you know, had these endless pitches. I think I get about three a day from lead gen agencies. It's unbelievable. I'm interested to know then, given all this, what's your strategy at Convert for growing the business and attracting new customers?
Eddie: So what I can tell, I've only been at Convert for a month now, this is May 29th. And what I can tell you is that before I joined Convert, I knew what they were doing and I knew the people in the company. I knew Dennis, I knew Trina, at least I knew some names. So the strategy for us is to build value. And it goes along with our company ethos and our culture. If you go onto our website, you're going to read about Holacracy. You're going to read about our culture. We're doing conscious business. You know, we don't want every business. We want the business that's right for us and for our customers as well. So being that selective, I think allows you to be, branding-wise and positioning-wise, a little bit smarter and competitive. We can't compete with Optimizely. You know, they're an enterprise-level tool, which we're not, and we are not pretending to be. We don't want to be an enterprise-level tool. We don't even have enterprise account executives. If an enterprise wants to sign with Convert, they just can go into the website and buy it. No red tape, no book a demo, no nothing like that. There is a demo available if you want it. And I think that speaks a lot about how we're doing marketing as well. We're still high performance. We still want to hit the numbers, but we're doing it consciously. And we want to track their right type of businesses to us. So the marketing strategy over the past, I would say five to 10 years have been all about positioning. And I can't tell you how many times it's so easy right now to talk to people now that I'm in partnerships. I thought it was going to be harder because when I was in growth at Mousel, it was really hard to get people to engage. It's so easy to do it now with Convert just because they have built that recognition on the market. They have built that authority, that legitimacy in the market. So the strategy is positioning a lot of content and value above all. that could encompass the whole strategy. Value above all. Trina, who's the CMO, it's all about value. Like there's nothing we do for a sale. It's all about value. And again, improving that consideration stage. In fact, we're actually, part of my joining the company was also because of the prospect of contributing to the bottom of the funnel as well, which is what I've been doing over the past five years, because they've been focusing a lot on building the tofu and mouth. Right. So there is so much consideration. So everything has been about positioning a lot of partnerships, strong technology partnerships, strong community as well, understanding what they need, just being there for them, being human. You know, at the end of the day, it sounds cliche, but that's what I'm finding that their success right now, outside of having a strong product and a strong positioning in the market, yada yada. It's just the power of value, just providing value. Right now, we're about to release a new agency report with Craig Sullivan. We interviewed more than 30, 33 agencies, 250 people actually contributed to the report, and we're just going to be releasing out. No, you know, no gating, no nothing. It's just value. The current state of CRO agencies for 2025 and the next years. So it's all about providing value. At the end of the day, whenever agencies, which is another big part of our ICP, or conversion rate optimization professionals choose a tool, They want to know who they're getting in bed with. They want to know whether they can rely on them, if they have somebody to talk to. And that's how the marketing strategy has been unfolding over the past few years.
Mike: I mean, that's really inspiring. I guess one of the questions is, we touched on marketing technology earlier, and clearly it's still advancing very, very quickly. Do you think with the advances in MarTech and particularly in AI, actually focusing more on the human side and the value is actually going to be a differentiator? Or do you think the power of AI and mass customization is really going to move it much more to automation?
Eddie: I was having a conversation earlier about, you know, the role of AI. And in 2016, I was working for a company called Vertigo Music, part of Tiny Horse, which was an agency spearheading influencer marketing when it started, you know, when it was just, I don't think they were even called influencers at that point. And I remember working on this project and there was nobody working in analytics or attribution. And being the curious guy that I am myself, I said, I'm just gonna leak this, right? And I became quickly ingrained into the team and development team, learned how to write user stories and acceptance criteria and all these technical things in order to get this platform set up. And I was really good at it, it was second nature to me. But I was really bad at asking the questions. I was bad. I was really bad. I didn't know how to put a report together. I knew what I wanted to measure, but I didn't know what questions to ask myself. And I feel like that's the same way that it's the same thing that's happening with AI. You know, it's great at digesting information, but the prompt is everything. That's why you see so many prompt engineers and this type of titles and people like talking about prompting. because it's all about what you feed it and how you steer the conversation one way or another. Tools have always been there and they're going to continue to improve. But I think it's going to take, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's going to take a lot of time before they can achieve the same level of critical thinking that we have, considering the sum of our experiences. So for me, it's going to be a mixture of the two, obviously. Being at the front of technology and innovation, especially when it comes to AI or otherwise, is going to set you apart. But the way you do business and the way you actually manage your relationships, at the end of the day, is what's going to make the biggest difference of all, if you ask me. At least that's my thinking today. That's my opinion today.
Mike: That's fascinating, a really thoughtful approach, I think, to the changes in technology. I mean, Edius has been amazing. It's been really interesting. Before we go, there's just a couple of quick questions we like to ask everyone. So the first one is, what's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever been given?
Eddie: You know, I've I've had great colleagues and I had I've had great leads, but I haven't had a lot of mentors, you know, that has stuck with me. I mean, I've moved around so much in terms of my life that it's been hard, but I keep my relationships around. But there are two things I can I can say is actually one in growth, do things that don't scale. It's always like that, that mantra you come back to. And it's just like, hey, I did this thing and man, it's hard to do. It takes time, but God, it works. So I think that's the best piece of advice. I don't even think it's advice. Nobody gave it to me. I read it somewhere. And it's just, do things that don't scale seems to be true, even today.
Mike: I love it. That's very different to what a lot of people say. And I think it's very true. Sometimes the things that don't scale really are the things that move the needle. The second question we love to ask is about careers in marketing. So what would your advice be to a young person just starting out in a marketing career? Be patient.
Eddie: Be patient because things take time. You can easily get a lot of imposter syndrome by just scrolling through Reddit or LinkedIn or anything because of everybody's achievements. But for one achievement they're sharing, I guarantee there are 20 failures. So be patient with yourself, pace yourself, and also have a plan. Know where you wanna go, know what tools you need and what skills you need to get there, and just keep trucking along. When the going gets tough, the tough gets going. So be patient, be humble, be gentle with yourself, and yeah, there are a lot of advices in there, but the main one is be patient. That encompasses it all. And especially if you're launching a campaign, be patient. Some things take time. If you're running ABM, be patient. If you're running paid, be patient. So be patient.
Mike: I love it. Eddie, thank you so much for your time. I'm sure you're incredibly busy, having just started only a month ago at Convert. But thank you for giving your time and those amazing insights. I really appreciate it. Of course. Thank you for having me again, and I look forward to being on call again and sharing some more insights. Fantastic. Thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode and if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Get Your Targeting Right: Why It Matters in B2B Marketing
In B2B marketing, who you target matters just as much as how you market. That’s why more companies are turning to Account-Based Marketing (ABM). Instead of spreading your message to anyone who might listen, ABM helps you focus on the accounts that are most likely to buy. It help saves time, money, and effort. But only if you do it right.
A big mistake marketers make with ABM is trying to go after too many companies without knowing who’s actually in the market. Only about 5% of businesses are actively looking to buy at any given moment. That means if you’re not targeting that 5%, most of your effort could be wasted. Knowing who’s ready to buy, and when, is the first key to making ABM work.
Accurate data is essential. If your data is off, you might end up pitching the wrong company altogether. (Think trying to reach Coca-Cola and ending up with a small independent bottler instead.) Bad data wastes your time and damages your credibility. So, it’s important to keep your contact lists clean and your information up-to-date.
Defining your ideal customer profile (ICP) goes beyond just industry or company size. The most effective marketers dig into the specific problems their product solves. If you understand the pain points of your audience, you can create messages that actually connect and, hopefully, convert.
Intent data helps, too. It shows you which companies are researching solutions like yours, so you can reach out when they’re most interested. Timing matters, and intent data gives you a better shot at catching buyers at the right stage in their decision-making process.
But while having the right data and a strong ICP is important, what sets successful ABM campaigns apart is context. Riaz Kanani, CEO of Radiate B2B, emphasizes that intent data alone isn’t a silver bullet. It’s a signal—not a guarantee—that a company is interested. Without brand awareness or relevance, even the best-timed outreach can fall flat. That’s why building awareness before engagement matters. The results? Companies using intent-driven campaigns have seen up to 3x faster engagement and higher click-through rates compared to static ABM lists.
To sum it up: successful ABM isn’t about casting a wide net. It’s about using accurate data, smart segmentation, and relevant brand-building to focus on the right companies, at the right time, with the right message. When done well, ABM campaigns drive not just awareness, but real conversions.
Want to learn more about ABM and how intent data drives better B2B campaigns?
Check out our episode of the Marketing B2B Technology podcast, where Riaz Kanani, Founder and CEO of Radiate B2B, breaks it all down.
Looking to find out how we can support your ABM efforts? Visit our ABM services page or get in touch.
The Power of Brand Marketing: Transforming B2B Marketing Strategies – Sean Adams – Brand Metrics
Sean Adams, CMO of Brand Metrics, discusses brand measurement and its impact on how B2B marketers approach their advertising strategies.
He highlights the importance of understanding consumer perception through metrics such as awareness, consideration, preference, and action intent, while advocating for a holistic approach that goes beyond last-click attribution.
He also shares his thoughts on the challenges B2B marketers face in measuring brand effectiveness and emphasizes the need for consistent messaging.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
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- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Brand Metrics
Brand Metrics’ is a technology company measuring brand lift at scale. Brand Metric’s unique SaaS solution measures campaigns as small as 50k impressions across display, video, branded content, and now CTV, delivering four key metrics – awareness, consideration, preference and intent - that are benchmarked against 50k+ campaigns across 122 industry categories. Brand Metrics is trusted by 60+ publishers, including NYT, The Guardian, and Bloomberg. More info at www.brandmetrics.com
About Sean Adams
Sean is Chief Marketing Officer at Brand Metrics, where he helps raise the profile and relevance of the company and its unique ad effectiveness solution to the advertising and media industry.
He has previously held a variety of strategic roles in advertising and media agencies across the UK and Australia. He later ran his own research company in Sydney for 10 years, before returning to the UK to lead the commercial insight team at News UK. He then joined Brand Metrics.
Time Stamps
00:00:17 - Guest Introduction: Sean Adams, CMO of Brandmetrics
00:02:46 - Overview of Brandmetrics
00:03:56 - Understanding Brand Lift
00:05:30 - Challenges of Last-Click Attribution
00:11:22 - B2C vs. B2B Brand Measurement
00:12:45 - Importance of Brand in B2B Marketing
00:14:02 - Advice for B2B Marketers on Branding
00:16:16 - Examples of Brand Lift Success
00:20:43 - Brandmetrics Marketing Strategy
00:24:36 - Quickfire Questions: Marketing Advice
00:27:02 - Contact Information and Closing Remarks
Quotes
"Brand lift is a way to try and measure the changes to consumers' perception towards a brand as a result of exposure to an advertising campaign." Sean Adams, CMO at Brand Metrics.
“One of the problems with digital marketing is there can be a desire to measure it, but a lot of things come down to the click." Sean Adams, CMO at Brand Metrics.
“If you continually do short term tactical activity, what that will do in the long term is it will damage your brand. I think that's true for B2B as well as big consumer companies." Sean Adams, CMO at Brand Metrics.
Follow Sean:
Sean Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanadams13/
Brand Metrics website: https://www.brandmetrics.com/
Radiate B2B on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brand-metrics-sweden/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
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Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Sean Adams at Brand Metrics
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sean Adams
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Sean Adams. Sean is the CMO of Brand Metrics. Welcome to the podcast, Sean.
Sean: Thank you. Nice to be here.
Mike: It's great to have you on. So, we always like to start by learning a little bit about you. So, if you could tell us a little bit about your career and why you've chosen Brand Metrics as your current company.
Sean: Yeah, of course, of course. It's an interesting question because it makes you quite reflective on, you know, kind of how you've ended up where you've ended up. And I have to say, it wasn't carefully planned. It's more of an unplanned accident, I think. I didn't have a 10-year vision. But what I've kind of done over my career is I've always done things that interest me and I've always been open to new opportunities. So along the way I've become, I guess, a bit of a magpie in terms of picking up skills and experience as we go. So I started out working in advertising in London. I was an account manager at an advertising agency. I worked there for a little bit, I then moved to Australia, still in the advertising game, and there I shifted from account management into account planning, so I took on a more kind of strategic research-focused role. I then moved from a creative agency into a media agency, and again I had a strategic role there looking at the kind of relationship between people and brands and advertising and media, and trying to find out the right context for advertising. Also in Australia, I set up a research company. So I did a lot of work in the area of kind of media and advertising and brands in Australia. I then returned back to the UK and I moved into the publishing world where I worked at News UK for four years and I ran their commercial insight team. So I was responsible for a range of things, part of which was proving the effectiveness of advertising on News UK sites. And more recently, I've sort of been kind of gamekeeper turned poacher. I've moved from the publishing world into the ad tech world. And I'm now kind of working for a company that helps publishers like News UK measure the effectiveness of advertising on their sites. So I've covered a fair bit of ground, not all planned, some of it more opportunity driven, but I guess at the heart of it all has always been advertising and effectiveness. I've seen it through different lenses, if you like.
Mike: Perfect. So let's dig into Brand Metrics. Do you want to give us a bit of a background on what Brand Metrics does? Sure, sure.
Sean: We're best described as an ad tech company, and we help measure brand lift at scale. So that's our proposition. And what we've done, the company was set up in 2018, and what it tried to do was to take technology in order to address an area that's traditionally been addressed by research companies and panel companies. So it's using technology, it's using algorithms to try to automate the process, so to make Brand Lift more available at greater scale to more people. We supply four metrics every campaign we measure. So those metrics being awareness, consideration, preference, and action intent. And we're a SaaS platform as well. So it's designed to be really easy for our customers to work with us. And it means they can measure campaigns quickly, efficiently, and at an effectively low cost. And our ambition, I suppose, is to turn brand lift measurement, which I'm sure we'll talk about a bit more, from a more ad hoc piece of research into something that's more like a metric. So it's something you kind of expect to get on pretty much every campaign.
Mike: So let's talk about brand lift. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people listening, they're B2B marketers, they understand brand, but maybe they haven't done a lot of research around, you know, their own brands and how people see them. So what exactly do you mean by brand lift? You mentioned, I think, four parameters you measure.
Sean: Yeah, yeah. So I guess brand lift is, it's a way to try and measure the changes to consumers' perception towards a brand as a result of exposure to an advertising campaign. So you run your campaign, you hope it has an effect on the brand, on your brand, but it's a way of trying to measure the effect that it does have. And there are various metrics that can be measured. We measure those four metrics, awareness, consideration, preference, and intent. And we measure them against a baseline. So the aim of a brand lit study is to try and understand the impact that the campaign has had on brand perceptions. So it's typically those mid-funnel metrics prior to any kind of click. Because I think one of the problems with digital marketing is There can be a desire to measure it, but a lot of things come down to the click, you know, last click attribution and things like that, which is a bit of a blunt tool, to be honest. You know, advertising can work in lots of different ways that don't necessarily lead to a click. And we're about trying to provide a more holistic way of measuring what actually goes on prior to that point.
Mike: Yeah, I always think last-click attribution is the same to those playground games of you touched it last. Yeah, absolutely.
Sean: I read an article about this a couple of weeks ago, a particularly good site actually called Adatat, if any of your listeners are interested. And they were talking about if you were sitting in a restaurant and a chef had produced the most beautiful meal and then the waiter delivered it to your table, you wouldn't give all the credit to the waiter. So it's quite a nice kind of analogy of saying there's an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes and just because someone delivers the last click doesn't mean they're responsible for the effect.
Mike: Absolutely, totally agree with you. So how do you measure brand? If you're trying to get into the heads of the audience that the brand is trying to reach, so are you doing that through surveys?
Sean: We are, yes. I mean, we do it perhaps a little bit differently. I mean, there are various companies that measure brand lift and they're all about trying to measure the effect of advertising activity on perceptions. The traditional methodology is kind of typically using research panels, dividing people into two groups, an exposed group and an unexposed group. asking them some questions about the brand and then comparing the results. And the hope or the expectation is that those who are exposed to the campaign now have a better perception towards the brand on one or more metric. We do things a little bit different. We were set up in 2018 around the time of GDPR. And as I said before, we try to use technology to automate the process, to make it as simple and streamlined as possible. So we don't use panels. We integrate directly with publisher sites. So we have a script that sits on the publisher site. What it does is it collects two bits of information. It collects exposure information because we think how much you're exposed to a campaign is actually quite important. You know, how many times have you seen it? How long have you seen it for? We collect exposure information and then we retarget a question on the publisher's site to people who we know have been exposed. So we're capturing two bits of information, exposure information and the answer to a survey. And that survey, it's a single question. We don't get them to answer a long report. We just want them to answer one question and that one question we're able to calculate four metrics. So I guess what we're doing is we're doing it all within the publisher's site, we're making it a single question and we're then using algorithms to use all that exposure information to calculate the lift. So all of that goes on underneath the bonnet but our aim is to use this technology to measure as simply as possible without having to go out and find samples of people in panels.
Mike: And that sounds like it's potentially a much more cost-effective way of doing it. I know that, you know, brands we've worked with that have tried to do some sort of assessment of how people perceive their brand. I mean, putting together panels in B2B is incredibly difficult and incredibly expensive.
Sean: It is, yeah. And the more specific your audience is, the harder it is to find people. Because if you want to speak to a senior hedge fund manager or something, the odds are they're not really going to be sitting on a research panel. They've got better things to do with their lives, to be honest. But there's a chance they might answer a single survey question on the site that they regularly visit. So we figure we've got a better chance of getting to people, as you say, more effectively, more cost-efficiently.
Mike: So that sounds really positive. I know that anyone who's tried to put together a panel will immediately be thinking this is a great idea. You mentioned that you run on the publisher's site. So who exactly are your customers? Are you selling to the publishers and then the publishers selling the value of the information to their advertisers? Or do the advertisers buy data from you as well?
Sean: So our core product has been on the publisher side. So most of our current customers are publishers or networks and they come to us and they integrate our technology onto their site. So yes, from their point of view, the benefit of doing this is they're able to prove the effectiveness of advertising on their sites. So without this information, someone might advertise on their sites and at the end of the campaign be none the wiser as to whether or not it worked. So it's their way of building accountability into how they deal with their advertisers.
Mike: So that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I know I've seen campaigns where people have run digital branding campaigns and they've measured them on clicks because there's really nothing else to measure on, but it's such a crazy thing to measure on because you're not actually trying to generate the click. So I think that's really good. So, I mean, I guess the question is a lot of B2B marketers will be thinking, yeah, okay, so I understand big consumer sites, you know, clearly this is gonna make sense. But what about some of the smaller publishers? Is brand metrics a tool that a smaller publisher could potentially use and implement?
Sean: Yeah, yeah. I mean, when we first launched, a lot of our early customers were big, big publishers. So a lot of news publishers. Our first couple of publishers in the UK, for instance, were Financial Times and The Guardian. So working with those kind of publishers, you know, we work around the world with the likes of New York Times and Washington Post, publishers like that. But we also work with much smaller publishers. So, you know, a UK example is we work with National World, who is a company that has lots of local newspapers, so newspapers all around the country. I think they've got about 170, 180 different very, very localised sites. And for them, they're not advertising to the, you know, the Kochs and the British Airways. They're advertising to the local kind of SMBs that operate in their area. So they use our technology as well. And the interesting thing with them is that they're almost kind of re-educating some of the local businesses. Look, don't just think about this as a click. Think about the effect your campaign is having on your brand. And that's really important. So it's been quite a re-education exercise. And for National World, it's been an additional metric that they can add to all the other metrics they capture that talks more about brand, less about performance, if you like.
Mike: And it's interesting, I mean, do you think that a lot of those big consumer brands, you mentioned Coke, they obviously care a lot about their brand, they've got a lot of budget, but do you think those B2C brands are actually much more active in terms of measuring how effective their brand advertising is than perhaps some of the B2B brands?
Sean: I think traditionally, yes, I think that's the case. I mean, you know, as for why I'm sweeping generalization time, I guess, but consumer companies tend to have bigger brands, they tend to have bigger budgets, and maybe kind of marketing and brand is more at the kind of center of what they do, you know, so it's part of their DNA, if you like. Whereas B2B companies often might have shorter term objectives, they might be a bit more sales focused, and perhaps they're looking for a shorter term ROI, so therefore more performance metrics are perhaps more relevant to them, and the idea of brand feels a bit kind of unnecessary in a way, you know, in the short term. But that said, I mean, there's a lot of industry studies that, I mean, Field and Binette's long and short of it. It's a kind of classic case of talking about the importance of brand building to ensure long term brand health. So if you continually do short term tactical activity, what that will do in the long term is it will damage your brand. I think that's true for B2B as well as big consumer companies.
Mike: Yeah. And I think also perhaps sometimes B2B marketers tend to undervalue the importance of brand because they assume, well, we're selling something technical, for example. It's going to be built on a technical decision. But actually, I don't know what you think, but I see in a lot of situations that customers using brand as a way to reduce perceptions of risk and feel more comfortable. I mean, do you agree with that? Do you see that with your work?
Sean: Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean, there's another interesting study known as the 95-5 rule, which applies very much to B2B. And that is that only about 5% of your target audience is likely to be in market at any given moment in time. So 95% of your potential customers are out of market. And I mean, if you think about that, then when they come into the market, they're probably going to move towards brands they're perhaps familiar with or have a level of trust about. And really your challenge is to, you don't know when they're going to come into the market. So your, your challenge really is to make sure that you're one of those more trusted brands at the moment when they come into the market. And if you don't support your brand, the danger is you're just giving competitive advantage to your, to your competitors. So in that, in that respect, if you're most of the time, you're part of the 95%, make sure that you're at least a familiar part of that group.
Mike: That sounds like really good advice. You know, when people come into market, they've got to be familiar and have some preference for your brand. I mean, do you have any other advice for B2B marketers about what they should be doing with their brand and maybe what they should be doing around measurement?
Sean: I mean, in terms of what to be doing around their brand, I think it's having a sort of a clear view on what your brand stands for. And I think there's a few bits to that. I mean, I think the first thing is having a clear understanding of your customer. You know, what's important to your customer? What are their motivations? What are they looking for in your category? And that's what they think, not what you think they think. And sometimes there's a difference there. So I think having a clear perception of what your customers want is the first thing. I think the second part of that is having a view on who your competitors are. You know, what are their positionings? What are they offering that you're also offering? What are they offering that you're not offering? And how does that relate to what's important to the customer? So having a bit of a map of the marketplace of where you sit. So I think if you've sort of, if you've managed to scope that out, then I think the other two things to do, the first thing is to have a clear proposition. You know, what do you stand for? What is your What is your point of difference? How would you differentiate yourself against competitors? And then having done that, then I think it's about making sure that all your communications is consistent, is distinctive, you know, and that can be anything from, you know, your logo, to your colour, to your typeface, to your slogan, to your visuals, whatever else it is. So, whenever someone sees what you're doing, they know it's from you and it has a consistent tone of voice because you're not going to be able to necessarily outspend your competitors but at least make sure that you're not confusing your message with their message. So I think those are sort of background thoughts. And then in terms of measurement, yeah, look, I just think measurement is important, you know, and you should be the same way you track other aspects of your business. You should be tracking how your brand sits in your customers' minds over time. You should be tracking that. You don't have to track a lot of information, but I think certain key bits of information are important. It helps you track where you sit currently, and it probably gives you a direction on where you should be focusing in the future.
Mike: I think all of that's great advice. So many good things in there. I mean, maybe the best thing to do is talk about some examples. I mean, do you have some examples of where you've seen brands that have used brand metrics to track that they've actually generated brand lift and achieved something through their advertising?
Sean: Well, I guess I don't have any specific examples because of sort of confidentiality reasons. But the thing is, because we're measuring with you know, many publishers, we're measuring, you know, hundreds, thousands of campaigns every month, and we've got a database of over 50,000 campaigns. So there's a massive amount of knowledge within there. And within there, we also, we can then break that down into different categories, so we can understand what's going on in different categories. But I think if you come down to a very micro level, each campaign has its own story. you know, it will have its own message that went out, it will have happened at a particular moment in time, reached a particular audience, and had a particular set of results. And every time we measure a campaign that provides fresh data that enables a conversation to take place. And That's not always a conversation that, I mean, your question was about examples of high brand lift. In my view, low brand lift is actually equally kind of insightful because, I mean, we find probably between 5% and 10% of campaigns actually don't really have much of an effect from a brand lift point of view. Some of them have zero effect. which, you know, if you're the advertiser who spent the money, that might sound a bit alarming, but if you're a consumer and you think about how many ads you've seen that probably just pass you by and it doesn't have any effect on you at all, it's probably not that surprising. But I think the important thing about consistent measurement is if you measure everything and you understand what works and what doesn't work, then you're in a better position to be able to decide what to do next time. So we see measurement not just as backward-looking, but as forward-looking as well. So if you've learnt what worked and what didn't work this time, you can decide what you maybe need to tweak and optimise next time.
Mike: I think that's a great point. I actually found it quite reassuring that 90% to 95% of advertising campaigns do deliver measurable brand lift. I mean that, you know, for a lot of B2B companies that perhaps are a little negative about advertising and they say, well, advertising doesn't work. Quite clearly, brand metrics can actually demonstrate the benefit of advertising very, very clearly. And do you find people actually quite pleasantly surprised at the positive impact that their advertising campaigns make?
Sean: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the thing about that, I'm saying about it can open up a conversation because, you know, at the end of the day, we provide just a few numbers at the end of each campaign. We provide, how does your campaign affect those four metrics? And then we typically compare that to the benchmark for that category. So there's kind of eight core numbers, if you like, the four metrics and how they compare. And on one level, that's just a bunch of numbers. And if you just look at that, you go, oh, that's not as much as I would have thought, then you're kind of not really understanding what the numbers represent. And I think what the numbers represent is how you've been able to deliver news to a particular group of people in a particular category. Because brand lift typically involves a shift in perception. So if you think about those four metrics that we measure, if you want to get a lift in, let's say, consideration, What that essentially means is you're talking to people who know your brand name, but they wouldn't put you on the shopping list. That's the group of people. So if you're able to get more people putting you on their kind of mental shopping list, then you've raised your consideration. So then the question is, well, how are you going to get people to put you on their shopping list? You know, in whatever your category might be, how are you going to actually drive consideration? So I think there's a story behind the number. And in some categories, a very small increase in consideration might be a huge step forward. If it's a big value item, a 1% increase in consideration might represent a lot of potential business. Whereas in a much smaller, lower value category, you might want to be driving bigger increases in consideration. So there's a real story behind it. I think the numbers are important, but to me, what's more important is what you do with the numbers and how you kind of interpret them and how you turn them into a story.
Mike: I think that's fascinating. I think it's a really good point. And also, you know, the value of even small movements in some of these metrics, I think, is something people could underestimate. I mean, this has been really interesting talking about how people use brand metrics. One of the things we'd like to ask Sean is, you know, how MarTech companies promote themselves. And I'd be really interested to understand how brand metrics goes about promoting itself and what your marketing strategy is for the company.
Sean: I guess we have sort of three broad audiences. So we're kind of trying to do slightly different things for each of those audiences. Those audience would be kind of internal customers and kind of wider, I suppose. So from an internal point of view, it's about making sure that everyone in the organization understands where we sit, that there's consistent messaging that goes across anything from communications to product messaging. And so we kind of seem like one organization, which might sound obvious, but as companies grow and if they're in different areas around the world, there's a challenge there to try and make sure that you're speaking with one voice. So I think there's a kind of internal role to marketing. The second group's our customers. So we work with a lot of publishers measuring lots of campaigns. So for them, it's about, I guess, trying to help champion our relationship. So it might be via, you know, press releases, content, case studies, white papers, anything that can champion the insights that they're getting from our data. So that helps them perhaps differentiate themselves against their competitors. And I guess the kind of subplot there is that the more who are doing that, the more who are using brand metrics as their proof of effectiveness, the more that moves us into the marketplace. And then more widely, I guess you're talking a group there of potential future customers. You're talking about companies we might want to partner with. We're talking about future employees. We're talking about maybe investors in the company in the future. And for them, it's more about raising our brand profile. What can we do to position ourselves as sort of thought, I don't like the term thought leaders, but people who have a point of view in the world of advertising effectiveness. You know, that we have a lot of data, we have a point of view on what works and what doesn't work, and we're forward-looking. So it's keeping us a bit like the earlier example of the 95-5. We want to make sure that for the 95, they've heard of Brand Metrics and they think positive things about us and have a continual message. little bit different for those three groups of people, but I guess it's all about just getting our name out there and promoting a consistent message.
Mike: I love the way that, you know, you start with the internal audience. I mean, that's really interesting to me, and I think it shows how important you view building a brand that is consistent as being the key thing, rather than trying to race off and, you know, use the latest MarTech tools that, you know, may or may not help. I think that's very interesting. Is that a deliberate approach? Yeah, I think so.
Sean: I think so, because, I mean, there's different people in the company who are sort of having conversations with different people every day of the week. If you just rely on people to kind of just wing it and sort of, this is what I think the company stands for, you're going to end up with a kind of a bit of a blurred view in the marketplace. So I think you've got to have a clear idea of what you stand for. So I think if you start from that, it also makes it clearer when you're producing external content as well. There should be a kind of a line between what you say about yourself internally and what you say externally. There shouldn't be two separate stories.
Mike: I mean, that's just a great approach to building a brand. I just love that. We'd like to finish with a couple of really quick questions. So the first one is, what's the best marketing advice that someone has ever given to you?
Sean: Yeah, I think there's two bits. The first thing is to remember that you're not your customer. And I think often people can assume they know what's important to a customer, but you kind of need to get out there. You need to talk to them. You need to ask some questions. You need to be opinion neutral and be prepared to move on from your preconceptions. So I think the first thing is being really open-minded and recognizing that you're not your customer. Your customer is your customer. And the second thing is about, I guess, making the complicated simple. We all have enough complexity in our lives, and I don't think that marketers should be adding to that complexity. I think you should be trying to boil down what your message is into simple terms. Use everyday language. Don't hide behind jargon. Just try and make things as simple as possible.
Mike: That's brilliant. That's two great pieces of advice. Our second quickfire question is, if you were talking to someone who was just starting a career in marketing, What advice would you give them?
Sean: I think on that one, I mean, there's some sort of practical kind of stuff around, you know, find a mentor and practice your presentation skills and so on. But I've got kind of three words I would sort of put forward as things to think about. Word number one is curiosity. I think you should develop a lifelong curiosity about the world that you're in. The job you're doing now may not exist in five years, so you need to be open, you need to take on different experiences, not just go to conferences around your business, but to broaden your mind. So I think the first one will be all around curiosity. The second one ties into my last point around clarity. Particularly if you're going into something like ad tech, you can hide behind the jargon, but think about what does it actually mean? What's the end benefit? And how can you talk and communicate more simply? So I think concentrating on simple communication skills will be the second one. And the third one would be kindness. I think it's a kind of quite an important leadership value. If you want to move on in your career and start to manage people and so on, I think you should always be listening to other people's views, being flexible and look to try and support people as well, you know, without fanfare, without humble bragging and so on. And kind of make sure that you set an example by what you do. So, I think those would be my three bits of advice. Be curious, you know, be clear and be kind.
Mike: Brilliant. That's a great way to end this interview. I'm sure people will have listened to this and they'll want to know more. I mean, what's the best place for them to go to or to contact you if they'd like to learn more about brand metrics or indeed measuring brands?
Sean: Well, you can contact me. I'm allowed to give an email address. I'm not sure. Sure.
Mike: Yeah.
Sean: Sean at Brand Metrics.com. That's S-E-A-N. Or look us up on LinkedIn. We have a fair bit of, if you look at the Brand Metrics site on LinkedIn, we have a fair bit of content there as well. So have a nose around there and see if there's anything that interests you.
Mike: Amazing. Sean, thank you so much for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
A Napier Webinar: Attribution: The Biggest Marketing Fairytale
Register for Napier's webinar and learn why attribution might not truly reflect a campaign's success. We will cover:
- Attribution models and the customer journey
- Why attribution is a childish measurement
- How B2B customers buy
- Business metrics
- Why you should measure incremental improvement
Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.
Napier Webinar: ‘How to Integrate AI Into Your Marketing Campaigns’ Transcript
Speakers: Mike Maynard
Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to the latest Napier webinar. It's good to have you all joining. I hope it's all going well, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to talk about attribution.
So attribution isn't always seen as the greatest, most interesting topic, but I think it's really important. So a lot of what we do in digital is all about measurement, and it's all about, you know, understanding what we do and making sure that we can actually measure what we achieve, and that's obviously very important, but the way we measure it is really, really key to making sure we actually get the right numbers. And the problem is, is that, basically, quite often, we think up numbers that have no real basis. In fact, they're total fairy tales, and we present them with three digits after the decimal point. And because it looks precise, we believe that it's all precise. The reality is, is that those numbers can often be fake. And what we want to do is really try and dig in today about how we understand what is a really good metric for measuring the performance of our campaigns, and make sure that when we measure we're actually measuring based upon business goals and not upon vanity metrics.
So let's have a quick look at the agenda. Now, obviously, if anyone has any questions, I'd really encourage those. Please feel free to put the questions into either the chat or the Q&A. We'll dig into both afterwards. Obviously Q&A is easier to find, and then I will answer the questions at the end, so type them in as you go along, and I'd love to answer some questions at the end. So we'll talk a little bit about what attribution is. We'll discuss some attribution models and how they relate to the customer journey. We're then going to, you know, look at attribution and, you know, explain why it's a childish fairy tale measurement. So we're going to explain why attribution is poor. We're going to look at how B to B customers buy, which is obviously very important. Understanding how they buy is key to making sure that we understand that our measurements match the actual behavior of the customers. And then we're going to talk about measuring incrementality or incremental improvement. So all about actually looking at the best way to measure which, ironically, is a technique that very few systems will incorporate automatically. And we'll talk about maybe why they don't incorporate it. And then lastly, we'll have a quick summary with a few tips on how to measure marketing campaigns.
So why do we care about attribution and measuring? Well, you know, what we're trying to do, really, is answer the question that John Wanamaker posed many, many years ago when he said, half the money I spend on advertising is wasted. The trouble is, I don't know which half Well, the idea is, is that attribution actually tags the people who come through, who see your advertising, and you can understand which half of the people are actually seeing your ad and doing something, and which half of the people are ignoring the ad. So it's hugely important to be able to understand whether or not the ad is working, and hopefully, if we do use some way of measuring and attribution, is a technique we use, although, as I'll show, it doesn't necessarily give you the right answer. You can actually eliminate the half of the advertising that doesn't work, so you can halve your advertising costs with no impact. So that's the theory.
So what exactly is attribution? I think we all kind of know what it is. We all feel it's, you know, linking your advertising to some results. But actually, you know, here's the definition from Wikipedia, which is a bit clearer. So what attribution does is it identifies user actions, or they could be called events or touch points, and they try and understand which of those contribute to your desired outcome, and then assign a value to each of these events. So as an example, you know very, very simply, if you run an email campaign to somebody, they then pick up the phone and talk to a salesperson and then buy something for $10 you know, maybe you'd advertise, you know, allocate an amount to be related to the email and an amount to the person who answer the phone, because obviously you need. Both of those to work, so you'd allocate some money or some credit from the sale to each of those. So it's really nice, because what it basically does is it gives you a monetary number associated with every marketing activity. So in theory, what it's doing is telling you how much return you get from each marketing activity, and that is perfect, provided the allocation number is right. So attribution uses, you know, data in some mathematical way to allocate value to something you do, and there's four key ways of doing it.
The first is called Single Source attribution. This is the very simplest. It's typically first touch or last touch. And it's very, very simple. So what it says is, is, if a customer makes a purchase, the very last marketing activity that touched them is responsible entirely for that purchase. Sales, people tend to love last touch attribution. They maybe don't talk about it in that way. But I'm sure you've all seen the situation where you've run marketing campaigns into a prospect, you've worked really hard, you've got engagement, you've got PDF downloads, you've seen the progress. They phone in, they talk to a salesman. The salesman claims, yeah, they were never going to buy. They never saw any marketing. It's just down to my call. That's classic last touch attribution. It's very simplistic and generally very wrong.
Fractional attribution tries to address the simplicity of single source attribution, and it allocates the value across a number of different activities, and that could be across all sorts of things. So the simplest way to do it is either to say everything you did all had the same impact, or the more recent it is, the more value you'll give to it. Now clearly, we all know that some activities are more powerful than others. We all know that equal weights or time to decay are really poor ways to allocate value, probably better than first touch and last touch, but really limited. Now people try and get multi touch and curve models and things like that, so more complex models, but it's still very arbitrary.
So the next thing that was developed was algorithmic, or probably probabilistic attribution. And basically what happens is, is a computer builds up a statistical model, and what it does is it tries to allocate the value based upon what it thinks has made the impact. So look at lots of different customer journeys. So very often we see this for digital ad platforms. For example, Google ads, they there. The default is using Google's AI based algorithmic attribution. And so it's creating a model. And this can actually be quite effective, although there are two key points. The first is, is typically the algorithm can only track activities within one platform. So with Google, it's basically going to allocate all the value across anything you do on the Google platform, even if you're running you know anything from PR through to attending trade shows, it's going to allocate everything to the Google platform, because it doesn't know what else is going on. So that's a hugely important problem. And the second thing is, is you don't actually have access, in general, to these algorithms, and say, not on Google, so you don't know how accurate they are. And in particular, if you're running a campaign that has relatively few conversions. And obviously, the closer you get to measuring your business metric, so that be a sale or a new customer win, the fewer conversions you're going to get, the more difficult it's going to be to build that model. It's going to take time to build it. And if you don't have enough conversions, the model won't be built. So the attribution will, frankly, be making stuff up. It won't have enough data to build the model.
So then lastly, there's customer driven attribution models. And this is basically trying to understand what customers want and what they respond to. And quite often, this is done with things like, you know, literally, customer interviews and asking them and then allocating the weighting based upon what the customer says. And as we all know, as marketers, the customer would like to think they're always right, but quite often they're not. So again, all of these, these different approaches, have real issues. And fundamentally, the issue we're seeing is that all these attribution techniques assume that any kind of marketing that interacts with the customer is going to have a positive impact. So let's have a little bit of a look at this so you know if we look at what's going to happen, here's your classic sales funnel. And if we've got someone flowing through the sales funnel, they might have numerous touch points, you know, they might see some PR articles at the start, maybe some display ads or social posts. You know, towards the middle of the funnel, you know, perhaps you're driving people with paid social to your website, or seeing them at a trade show. Maybe they're downloading an e book, and towards the end, you know, maybe it's a phone call or a salesperson meeting, or even a retargeting ad. So they're seeing lots and lots of different items, and it's assumed that all of these items are all going to positively contribute when we come to attribution, if the customer buys, and it's assumed that none of them work if the customer fails to buy. So it's a very simplistic model, and we can look at how these different models work very quickly.
So just graphically, this is first touch attribution as soon as they enter the funnel. We've still got a lot of work to bring them through the funnel, but we're just going to assume that that work has no value. Last touch attribution right at the bottom. We're going to assume all the work, bringing them through until they're just about ready to buy, had no value, and then whatever touched it last is the most important. So not very good fractional attribution. I mean, basically we're allocating, you know, different values to each stage based upon some arbitrary set of numbers. It could be either everybody gets the same so anything that touched the customer worked, or it could be some other time decay or something else.
And then we look at algorithmic, and we've talked about this again, and algorithmic, what we're going to do is we're going to allocate value throughout the funnel, which is great, but it's some sort of, you know, magic black box algorithm that we don't necessarily have access to, and frankly, may not have sufficient data to be able to make a Good decision if we're talking about relatively low volumes.
And then lastly, we've got the algorithmic sorry, we've got the customer attribution, sorry, the title is wrong here, and then that's based upon the feedback from talking to the customer. And so again, it requires the customer to give the correct answer. But ultimately, all of these are pretty childish. They're all contributing to a bit of a fairy tale. You know, we've all had this discussion. You touched it last.
Not a great way to discuss anything overly simplistic for advertising, you know, or alternatively, we can implement the waiter that brings our food on the way he farmed and cooked it clearly he didn't his last touch. But also, it's important to note that it doesn't matter how well the waiter does, if the farmer and the chef aren't involved, there is no great result for the waiter. So attribution can ignore the interaction that's required between different activities to generate the conversion. And generally speaking, attribution is pretty terrible at looking at where you need multiple touches, and it just assumes that each touch is somewhat independent. The next thing can be the issue around focusing on what's measurable. So typically, if you're running, say, a media relations campaign, you're getting some great coverage in the press. People are getting excited. It's really hard to link that through to sales. You don't know who's read your articles in the media, and so therefore you can't really attribute anything to PR because there's no way of tracking it.
However, if you're running email marketing or Google ads, it's really easy to track. The tracking is all there. So what happens is, is that attribution is a bit like the drunk person looking for their keys, and the drunk person looking for their keys will look under the lamppost because it's light and they can see. However, we all know they drop their keys in the dark, and so do they, and it's very similar when we look at attribution, attribution is looking at where things are illuminated through trackability, which is typical, typically digital, and quite often missing the things that are more difficult to see just because it's going for the convenience of measuring, of focusing on what's measurable.
And then lastly, and you know this, I think, is really quite important. I mean, attribution often doesn't show you the money. It doesn't always measure the impact on organization sales. And the reason for that is you're allocating value for a sale to every marketing activity. Now it could be, particularly if this is a kind of, you know, a repeat purchase. So purchase through procurement for some. Think it's in production that procurement person was going to buy anyway. And you know, if you keep hitting the procurement person around the time that they need to place the next order for their production requirements, you're going to get some fantastic attribution. You're going to make zero impact on the sales, but you're going to get lots and lots of value attributed, and the same thing is also shown. You know, for example, on Google ads, when people advertise around, you know, different brand keywords.
A great example would be, you know, one of our clients, microchip, they have a platform called microchip Direct, which is their e commerce platform. So if you want to order a product from Microchip, you go to microchip direct. I can tell you that the best keyword in terms of attribution, if you're running ads for microchip, will be microchip direct. Because you know, everybody searching for Microsoft direct has the intention of making a purchase. I can also tell you, because everyone already has the intention to purchase that the actual impact on the business is probably the lowest for microchip directs the keyword than anything else, and so attribution gives you completely the wrong picture. And actually, what this means is, ultimately, when we're using attribution, a lot of people get frustrated because they're trying to track attribution across a number of different channels, and what they find is one plus one equals 24 they add up all the value across their different channels that have been attributed to sales, and they find out that the total number is significantly more than the sales they've achieved. And so because of this, it's really, really important to understand that, you know, the different attributions across different platforms. Don't understand what's going on on other platforms, so you won't necessarily get the right value. So again, assigning a monetary value.
It sounds, you know, very convincing. But if you're running, for example, a campaign on LinkedIn and then retargeting people on Google after they visit the landing page, both those campaigns will decide that they're all responsible for the sales, and they'll both want to claim all the value. And that's not right. Actually, they both contribute, but they don't share it because they're different platforms.
Now, if there's any engineers here, I can hear everybody shouting, we all know this correlation is not causation, and this is really important. So what attribution does is it measures correlation. It says people who saw this ad tended to buy, therefore the ad was fantastic. It doesn't actually mean that because they match, there's necessarily a direct link. There's lots of famous examples of correlation not being causation. My favorite example probably is the direct link between violent crime and ice cream sales, as you can see here, the two curves follow each other very, very closely. Arguably, ice cream sales are lagging behind. It kind of suggests that, you know, maybe people go out and buy ice cream after committing violent crime, we should just arrest everybody buying ice cream. Quite clearly, that's not true, you know. And equally, you know, it's really clear that, basically, more violent crime happens when the weather is warm. People are more likely to be outside, meet more people, and potentially as well, there's more alcohol consumed as well. But ice cream is not the cause of violent crime, and violent crime is not the cause of ice cream sales. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to do the same thing when we attribute. So we need something different. I mean, hopefully you've seen that attribution really is this fairy tale. It's a bit of correlation, it's a lot of approximation.
It's platforms trying to grab as much credit as they can for their platform, and it's not a very effective way of measuring the how well your marketing works. And the reason for this is that B to B customers don't buy in a simple way. So firstly, different customers will have different approaches to buying so you can't run one model that applies to everybody. The buying process is also complex with many people involved, and you've got to reach lots and lots of people, and those people want different information at different times, and frankly, you know, targeting one group of the decision making unit or the buying committee with content that's really suitable for another I mean, that's not going to actually help sell the product in most cases. And in fact, can even put the buyers off because you're not supplying the information that they really care about personally, you supply it to the wrong person in B to B as.
Quite often the decision is made pretty early. And a great example of that is if you look at, for example, choosing semiconductors. So if you're choosing to use a semiconductor, what will happen is you've got to buy a sample at semiconductor, put it into a board, build the board up, then write the software test the board, and then, only then can you start moving into production. So you're actually choosing to the product well before you even buy that first sample or get that first sample to test. And so it's very difficult to correlate the sale, which happens, you know, and in electronics and semiconductors, easily can happen a year after the decision has been made with the actual decision. So typically, what you'll want to do is, you'll want to tie sales through to marketing activities. But the reality is, is that's quite hard to do. And also, in that particular case, once you move into volume, it's almost certainly procurement that is purchasing the parts in volume, so they seem like the important buyer. But actually, if you're talking about a 32 bit microcontroller, people in procurement are not swapping those microcontrollers out for different vendors. It's the engineer at the start, who never spends any money, perhaps, who actually is responsible. So tracking is really, really hard.
Some of the buying is emotional, and that can lead to a very different level of importance for different touch points. And so that can be, for example, that a particular customer reference or maybe a white paper, or even a meeting at a trade show can have a huge impact, whereas perhaps display ads, whilst they slightly increase the likelihood of purchase, they're not necessarily huge. Of course, display ads can also be one where actually, if you have sufficient display ads, then there's very much a level of diminishing returns. Once you've got an awareness that means the potential customer is prepared to consider you as a vendor, then maybe those display ads running awareness perhaps aren't going to add any more value if you keep putting more on and generally speaking, attribution has no concept of non linear effects. It always assumes some sort of linear effect. The more you do something, the more effective it's going to be, B to B.
Customers are risk adverse. That means that obviously a lot of what you might need to do is give them reasons why they shouldn't reject you, rather than reasons why they should buy. So that, again, can make it quite difficult. And you know, it's very, very slow, as I mentioned. So what's the solution? Well, the solution is easy for some markets and incredibly different for others. So the solution is to measure incrementality or incremental sales, and this is somewhat like AB testing, but what you're AB testing is you're AB testing the impact of running a campaign versus not running a campaign, as opposed to classic AB testing, which is, you know, for example, testing email a against email B. And in that situation, you know you can find that email B, for example, might perform better than email a, but you actually don't know how much better email B performs than running no marketing. You know, it could almost be that email a is such a terrible email it puts people off, and so it results in actually a fall in sales, and email B makes very little difference to the likelihood of someone to buy. So AB testing can lead you down a route where you're comparing two different activities, but you're not necessarily really understanding whether you're growing sales. So generally speaking, people talk about having control and test groups, and the test group gets exposed to a campaign, and the control group doesn't. And then, ideally, you want to measure to sales, and not to just PDF download, although you can measure to that and see if you incrementally increase PDF downloads, again, incrementally increasing PDF downloads is better than one email winning an AB test against another. You know how much impact you've made. But of course, it's very, very hard to do.
And so unfortunately, just like in all fairy tales, we have to have a wicked witch, and the Wicked Witch of incrementality comes in. It's really hard in B to B to measure incrementality. It's very difficult, for example, to get a proper control and test group. For example, if you're running PR, it's really hard to know who's not seen your coverage online in publications versus who has. It's very difficult to separate them in consumer markets, quite often, companies will choose different cities in the US or maybe regions in Europe. Uh, but that, of course, is fraught with difficulties, because people in different cities might behave differently. There might be different impacts. Of course, you're measuring, you know, whether you increase the sales in each city.
But you know, in one city, for example, there could be, if you're talking about selling luxury goods, there could be, you know, a large number of redundancies that causes luxury goods to fall, that has a bigger impact than your marketing. So it's really hard to get these control groups. The buying journey is a long period of time. I mean, we've worked with clients who had multi year buying journeys. You really don't want to know whether your marketing three years ago had a positive impact, and wait three years to find that out. So the time scale can be very difficult. The complexity also impacts things.
So the different members of the DMU, particularly, can interact very differently, and that can mask sometimes the benefits of some marketing. There's often a huge number of touch points, you know, across a multi year buying cycle. Hopefully your marketing is reaching those prospects many, many times. So it's almost impossible to isolate a single touch point, and within those long, complex buying journeys, each touch point has relatively little value. And also activities may interact. And it may be as simple as you just need to keep touching the customer at a certain frequency to make sure that they're still engaged. Or it could be that, you know, if you don't send an email, you know that's around your certifications, then the following email about how high, how fast your processor is has no impact. So lots and lots of challenges from our wicked witch.
Fortunately, however, we do, as in all fairy tales, have a fairy godmother. And so really, our recommendation is you've got to do your best. I mean, measure campaigns where you can for incrementality, not for attribution. Obviously, sometime you're not going to be able to measure incrementality. And very, very rarely are you going to actually be able to measure like full journey incrementality. You're going to have to measure journey across intermediate metrics. So we would strongly recommend you know, firstly, always trying to identify, you know, whether you've increased sales or not. It sounds obvious, but it's not something that a lot of people do. I think also consider, you know, testing incrementality across at a campaign level rather than a tactical level. So rather than testing a particular ad test a campaign, it's much more effective to do that because of the length of the buying cycle.
Definitely, I'd recommend using intermediate metrics. So if you've mapped your customer journey, and hopefully you will have then look at moving people from one stage to the next of the customer journey, and use that as your measurement, because measuring across the full journey for most of the people on the call will be impractical, due to the time that people take to travel through it, and finally, don't forget to measure non measurable marketing. And the example I've given multiple times, it's the easy example, is getting media coverage. It's something that's virtually impossible to track digitally. It's actually something you can measure really effectively using incrementality. So you know, it might be that actually what you say is we're going to run some really powerful media campaigns around product A. We're not going to, you know, run anything around product B, and we're going to see whether product A's sales increase and whether that therefore shows we've generated revenue. So incrementality is a great way to measure things that are non digital and traditionally hard to measure. So I hope you've enjoyed this. If you do all of these things, you will live happily ever after, and also your marketing will produce much better and much stronger results.
If you've got any questions, please feel free to put them into the Q and A or the chat. But before we go there, we're going to talk about making chat GPT your best sales person for the next webinar, which will be on the 24th of June, 2025 so this is something I think a lot of people are really interested in. It's about, how do you get your brand to show up in generative AI results? So if I type a query into chat GPT, and maybe that asks about, you know, the best DCDC converter, how do I get my brand to show up in those generative AI results? We're going to talk a little bit about measuring how well you do, and the tools to that are only just emerging. And then we'll also talk about what you can do to improve your visibility.
Perfect. So thank you very much for listening. If anyone does. Have a question. Here we go. We've got a couple of questions here.
So I'm being asked about software to assist with measuring an attribution. So the problem is is most software today typically focuses on attribution, and so most software today is looking to say there's correlation. That's not necessarily causation, and it's a real issue for me, as you know someone that who's quite passionate about marketing and measuring marketing, is that it really is. Did you touch that? That prospect on the way? Therefore it must have been positive. So very few systems have a great way of, you know, actually looking at what had a positive uplift on sales and how much that positive uplift was. So, I mean, we've asked about Marketo measure and Adobe mix modeler. I don't want to talk about specific, you know, tools, but those tools are basically trying to match what you did against different prospects and see which ones touch the customers or touch the people that became customers. And as I said, you know, it is an indication, you know, attribution is not useless, useless, but it is kind of assuming, you know, in this fairy tale, that everything has a positive impact, and it's also applying, you know, some sort of statistical analysis to say there's a formula for it. So I would say that today it's really hard to use software to measure incremental sales, because actually, most software is not designed to do that. And if I'm being cynical, a lot of software is designed to claim as much credit for the tactics you're running with that particular platform. And Google and LinkedIn are great example of this as it possibly can so, it's looking to allocate as much value to its own tactics. Some of the other tools that mentioned here in the question, they do look across more than one platform, but they are still limited, and they are still doing this really simple attribution, rather than measuring incrementality in most cases.
I hope you enjoyed this. I hope it was interesting. It's always difficult presenting a webinar that's about a topic like attribution, which isn't on the face of it, the most exciting topic.
Hopefully you can tell I'm super passionate about measuring marketing activities well, so I'd really love to talk to you. If any of you have questions afterwards, please feel free to email me. My email address is there, mike@napierb.com and I'd be happy to have a chat. And I really hope I see you all in the next webinar where we can talk about appearing in generative AI search results. Thank you very much.
A Napier Webinar: How to Integrate AI Into Your Marketing Campaigns
Register for Napier's webinar and discover how you can quickly and effectively integrate AI into your marketing campaigns. We will cover:
- Where can AI help?
- How do you start integrating AI?
- Examples of how we integrated AI
- Do I need a huge investment of time and money?
- The Do’s and Don'ts for creating successful AI integrations
Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.
Napier Webinar: ‘How to Integrate AI Into Your Marketing Campaigns’ Transcript
Speakers: Mike Maynard
Hi, good afternoon and welcome to the latest Napier webinar. Thank you all for joining. Today we are going to talk about how to integrate AI into marketing campaigns and we're going to talk about how to do it now.
I think what's happened is there's been a lot of hype around AI—a lot of people talking about using AI in marketing—but the reality is that most people are struggling to use it beyond using something like ChatGPT or AI that's embedded into different systems. The problem is that today, chances are the systems you're using—for example, your CRMs and your marketing automation platforms—probably don't have the AI features you need.
So the question is: what can we do to add AI into existing, what we'll call "dumb" systems, and make them intelligent—able to create content automatically for you—without needing the developers of those systems to actually add those features in?
Whilst we're going through, I'd really encourage you to add some questions into the Q&A tabs. So feel free to do that. And please ask whatever you want. We'll try and cover all the questions towards the end. So just pop them into the Q&A or the chat, and we'll go from there.
What are we trying to do? Well, I mean, if we have a look at what's happening today, I think most of us feel that things are a little bit like this: we’re working hard, and there's AI, and it's sat in the background, and actually, most of the time, AI isn't really doing the work for us. The reality is, most of the time, the AI is sat back on the sofa, relaxing, and we're sat there wondering where our AI assistant is.
That's not what we want. This is what we want. We want to know that marketers are smashing KPIs with AI. We want to have people promoted to CMO because they've used AI, and ultimately, generating million-dollar campaigns with AI—and having time for marketers to drink the champagne rather than actually do the work.
Now, that might be a little ambitious—I get that. But the one thing I would like to do is have enough time to generate fun newspaper covers like these front covers from The Sun. But I think actually the reality is we’re stuck more in this kind of meme of, “Where’s my jetpack?”
People have been talking about technology for a while. I remember when I was a kid growing up, we were all going to have jetpacks by the time I was an adult—and I’m still waiting. And I’m also still waiting for AI to do my job for me. So it's quite good from a job preservation point of view, but it's not necessarily a great thing when we look at actually getting help.
I think there's a perception that some large enterprises with high-end systems are already using AI. I mean, I can tell you from our work with much larger clients—they are starting to use AI, absolutely—but they're still struggling. There are still issues. Even in these big enterprise systems that have huge amounts of investment, the AI tools don’t really do what you want them to do.
So we're going to explain how to bring AI into your tools. It's going to be a little bit technical, but hopefully nothing that we can't all cope with as marketers.
So let’s have a look at the agenda. We're going to touch a little bit on where we think AI can help. We're going to talk about how you actually start integrating AI and actually give you some examples of AI integration. I'm actually going to show you some examples of how AI can be used within existing tools that don’t currently have the capability. We're going to talk about the costs, and then lastly, we’re going to cover the do’s and don’ts for creating successful AI integrations.
And hopefully, what we’re going to do by the end of this webinar is get that comfortable, AI-enabled robot off the sofa, sat at the desk, and doing our job for us. So that’s our goal today.
The first place we're going to start is: where can AI help? And I mean, the answer is AI can help in a huge range of different places—data analytics, working with contacts and leads, generating content, being chatbots, helping you brainstorm—all these kinds of things. There's a huge list. I mean, this is only really a few ideas. There are many, many more.
But I think one of the interesting things, particularly, is around contacts and leads. And so what I’m not going to do here is I’m not going to sit and talk about generating blog posts using ChatGPT. I think we all know how to do that. It’s not automated. And frankly, it’s pretty straightforward.
But what's much more interesting to me is being able to use AI, for example, to personalize emails and landing pages—something we hear about all the time. What we're going to do is actually show you some examples of how you can get personalized content about individuals into your CRM or your marketing automation platform. That way, you can then create emails and landing pages that are truly 100% personalized. So that's going to be the key example.
Having said that, there's also a lot of things we can do with the same approach that cover everything from data analysis through to segmenting databases. So we will touch on that as well. But the main examples will be around personalization and enriching data about individual contacts. Just so you know, that’s the example we’re using—but it’s not the only thing you can do with these automation tools.
The first thing to say, I think, is that AI is going to come to our tools. We’re hearing a lot—Salesforce probably more than anybody else with their Einstein products—about AI doing the work for sales and marketing teams. So yes, people are adding AI into their systems.
Ultimately, I think integrated AI is probably going to be the best way to use AI. In fact, my personal view is that as marketers, if we look ahead maybe five years, we’re not going to be thinking about AI as something separate. It’s just going to be embedded into everything we use. AI won’t be a standalone technology—it’ll simply be part of our everyday workflow.
But we’re not there yet. In fact, we’re nowhere near there. Often, what you want to do is far beyond what’s actually included in a system. Even if you have something like Salesforce and want to do AI analysis, it’s not necessarily built in with Einstein. And that’s assuming you even have the latest version, the right instance, and you’ve paid for all the necessary upgrades.
So what we need to do is build a bridge. As I said, we're going to use the example of adding data to CRM records—or marketing automation records. The goal is to personalize information by adding extra data. But somehow, we need to build a connection between the system with the contact data and our AI model or engine that generates intelligent content.
We need something magic to sit between these systems. That “magic” is actually called middleware. And I promise, this is about as geeky as it gets.
So what is middleware? It’s just software that connects two other pieces of software, typically through APIs. These APIs exist on both the CRM or marketing automation platform and the AI tool.
Let’s move away from the technical jargon and look at something more practical. These aren’t difficult concepts—it’s just that the terminology makes them sound complex. An API is simply how one piece of software talks to another. You won’t be surprised that some software—because it’s built by engineers—isn’t very sociable and doesn’t talk to anything. So, no API means it’s very hard to get data in or out.
Fortunately, most modern software is built to talk to both humans and other software—which means it has an API.
Now, middleware—again, software that sits between two systems—talks to both APIs. A good example of middleware is a product like Make. But you might be more familiar with Zapier, which is a very well-known, simple, and straightforward piece of middleware.
We’ll look at examples in a minute that use both Make and Zapier to enrich contact data. In this case, it’s data that goes into the Napier marketing automation platform, which is an integrated CRM and marketing platform. These examples will literally enrich contact data by adding additional personalized information.
Of course, other tools are available. At Napier, we use a lot of Make, and also a good amount of Zapier—it’s probably one of the simpler tools to get started with.
One thing to be really clear about: when I was growing up and learning about software, one of the big sayings was “garbage in, garbage out.” And it’s absolutely true. If you don’t have good data, your AI isn’t going to generate anything useful. So you need to give the AI the best quality data possible.
That means you must enrich your data—add more detailed, accurate information to your contact records. The more information you provide, the better the AI will be at writing about the contact and generating things like personalized emails or sales pitches.
Now let’s move forward. Before we even get into middleware and APIs and all that tech, let’s look at a simple example. Here's a real-life project we ran—names blocked out for confidentiality.
We had a list of companies and their locations. We needed to categorize these companies by industry. So we asked ChatGPT what industry each company was in. A top tip here: if you just ask ChatGPT “what industry is this company in?”, it’ll give you wildly varying responses. It’s much better to give it a limited list of options—for example, is it audiovisual, communications, security, agriculture, etc.—so it can categorize accurately.
The prompt we used was something like: “Identify the industry served by [Company Name]” with the company name in a cell. It’s really simple.
We used Google Sheets (though Excel would also work). You create a prompt in a cell, then just drag it down, and magically you categorize hundreds of companies in a very short amount of time.
It’s a great way to get started. Don’t rule this out—it’s quick, it’s effective, and there are a couple of tools worth looking at. One of them is GPT for Sheets, which brings in ChatGPT and other AI models directly into Google Sheets.
So this is actually the tool we used to do the categorization. We ran this all in Google Sheets and used GPT for Sheets and literally had that query just run a GPT query and fill out the cell with the result. Obviously, if you're a Microsoft company, Copilot is starting to do more and more on the AI side. And so we're seeing more and more people using Copilot to fill in data. But to be honest, I mean, GPT Sheets is an incredibly easy and straightforward tool to use.
So that's the first thing. And actually, if you're trying to categorize companies, sometimes Excel is actually the easiest way to do it. It lets you count, look at the number in each category, tweak the categories to get them right. So it can be quite efficient and effective.
But if you're looking to do a bit more, and particularly if you're looking to process things automatically rather than having to manually download and upload, we need to go to other tools. And so our first integration example we're going to look at is Zapier. We're going to look at an integration that basically takes a new lead from Sharpspring, which is our CRM and marketing automation platform, has a conversation with ChatGPT, and then updates the lead with the data.
So if you just give me one second, I will try and open up this example. The first thing I'm going to show you—sorry for the delay in just doing this—the first thing I'm going to show you is this: This is actually the first step that we haven’t really talked about. When we add a contact into Sharpspring, we actually run a query against the database. We use a database called Apollo, and that will enrich the contact data.
Literally what we can do is enter an email and then automatically all sorts of additional data is populated—the person's name, their job title, the company they work for, the company URL, etc. Assuming that there's a match based on email in Apollo, we then update the lead with all the extra data. We also get an error if we can't get a match, so we know when we're uploading data that doesn't match.
This is really important, as I said, because this is the first stage of actually making the ChatGPT—so the AI—work. It's about getting lots of data so the AI has something to crunch on.
The next step is this one here. And that, again, is when there's a new lead. What we do is we have a conversation with ChatGPT. So we'll get the data from the new lead, and then if I click this, we can see on the right-hand side, we open a conversation with ChatGPT. In the configuration, you can see here, it's really simple.
What we've done is we've asked it to create a short summary of the company that we're accessing. You can see here the last run we had looked at a company called B2B Interactive Media. The idea is it’s a short summary useful for someone looking to sell marketing services.
Then we do something quite interesting. We specifically ask how you might pitch services of Napier to this particular company, and so this is all returned as data. Now obviously this is an example to show you the kind of things you can do. You could quite easily, for example, say, “Write a pitch email for Napier,” or you could say, “Write one sentence as to why Napier would be the best agency to work with this particular company.”
Obviously, B2B Interactive Media is actually a publisher, so it’s not necessarily a client or potential client for us. But let’s assume it was a client or a potential client. We could actually ask it to write one sentence. We could insert that into an email—or it could write the whole email.
There are lots of features here you can see around choosing the model and all sorts of different things that we could use. But fundamentally, I’ve used default options and it will produce some data that actually will give you useful information.
If you want it to write emails, it can. And then you can literally just set up a marketing automation to send an email where the entire content is just the field that was created by ChatGPT. The whole email is then custom to that particular prospect. The whole email is AI-generated. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve got any AI capabilities or none in your marketing automation platform—you can just send that because it’s in a field once we upload that back into the system.
So we've got huge amounts of capabilities here to create content.
The one thing I would say—and we’ll talk about this later—is that the more you ask AI to do, the greater the risk associated with the content that’s going to be produced. The more risk it has of getting something wrong. The more you can constrain it, the less risk there is. So always think about whether you want your AI to generate a complete email, or whether it’s just customizing a sentence. Sometimes customizing that sentence is actually going to be a lot safer and more powerful.
So now I’m just going to reshare again. Just one second—here we go. This is Make, the other tool I mentioned. You can see it looks a bit prettier; we’ve got little round circles rather than just lines. We can move them about, but actually, Make is much, much more powerful.
Here, for example, we start off by looking for all the leads that have been added in the last 200 minutes. It will load all those leads, up to a maximum of 10. That’s what Make will do here. We then go through and can do all sorts of things. We can set variables that we use later on. So for example, we might want to use the lead ID later, and Make gives you the ability to remember the lead ID through multiple stages.
We then call up OpenAI—so ChatGPT—and finally, we upload the results to Sharpspring. In my examples, we’re asking ChatGPT for text, but there’s no reason why you can’t also use DALL·E and ask for an image to include in an email. You can add images and other creative content as well.
Again, you can see here we’re running essentially the same query: a summary of the company and three things that someone trying to sell Napier’s services could say. It’s the same logic, just a slightly different approach. Make is more powerful—you can pull data from multiple sources and merge them together—so there's a lot more flexibility.
Still, in this case, we’re doing the same flow as Zapier. It’s just as powerful: generate an image or a complete email, and all of it is ready to go.
One interesting thing to mention is that AI is getting more chatty. If you’ve used ChatGPT recently, you’ve probably noticed that it loves to say things like, “Oh, that’s a great question!” So increasingly, we’re having to tell the AI to provide direct answers only—no intro or outro—so it just returns what we need. If you’re experimenting with this, top tip: tell it no intro or outro, and you’ll get much cleaner, more usable results.
As you can see, setting this up is relatively simple. These workflows aren’t hard to build and are easy to use. Let’s go back to our PowerPoint slide.
So this was the Zapier example. As you can see, it’s really a simple three-step process: Zapier is triggered by a new lead, it asks ChatGPT for information, and then it loads the data back into Sharpspring. Just three steps—that’s it.
Make was a bit more elaborate. It’s meant to showcase some of the more advanced capabilities. You can simplify it, of course. In our demo, we looked for leads, got data from the lead, set a variable (which actually isn’t needed in this example but demonstrates capability), called OpenAI with a query, and uploaded the results to Sharpspring. Again, very simple and straightforward.
The great thing about these tools—Zapier is triggered when a new lead comes in, and Make can do the same—is that you can just let them run in the background. So, you get new data, Zapier enriches it, ChatGPT writes a summary and pitch points, and those go into fields in Sharpspring. If someone then wants to pitch the company, those insights are already there.
For campaigns, you might add email content, landing page content, or even dynamically generated links. All of this can be created with AI, and the text can be wrapped around whatever structure or content you’re building.
Hopefully, all of this sounds exciting. However, there are some limitations.
The first question you might ask is, “This is great, but I have a custom GPT that knows about my company—can I just use that?” Unfortunately, with ChatGPT today, you can’t connect custom GPTs to tools like Zapier or Make directly. There is a workaround—you can create an Assistant and upload data for it to reference—but let’s be honest, that’s not something most marketers are going to do.
The better solution is to use a tool that’s purpose-built for this. A good example is customGPT.ai. As the name suggests, it lets you build a custom GPT and upload a huge number of documents for it to use as a reference. This GPT is then fully trained on your company and products, so it produces much better content. And importantly, it provides an API you can connect to tools like Make or Zapier.
So, if you’re looking to build something around your own data and brand, you’ll likely need to go a bit beyond ChatGPT itself. But it’s not hard—just use the right tools that are built for the job.
So one of the questions we also get is, does it cost a lot to do this? Well, actually, it's surprisingly cheap. So if we look at Make, Make’s pricing starts at zero. And actually, the pro level is $16 a month. So you can have middleware that's very, very cheap. Zapier, again, won’t be surprising, starts at zero. The next level up, the professional level, is about 30 pounds. So I guess about $35, $40. It gives you more features, but quite often people are still using the free level.
There are some benefits with spending money with Zapier, not least because the response time for checking for new contacts, for example, gets reduced. You can check much more frequently. So that's one of the big benefits of paying for Zapier, is getting more frequent checking if there's new contacts. So the middleware, this complicated software that sounds very difficult is, you know, it's literally, if you have to pay anything for it, is only a few pounds or dollars a month.
And then if we look at the cost of AI now, because we're accessing ChatGPT through the API, actually it's not related to our standard ChatGPT subscriptions. What we have to do is buy API credits. So you need to buy credits. These credits come out at what is $10 for a million tokens, very roughly. So a million tokens, a good example is about 60 words is about 100 tokens. So you're talking you know maybe half a million words being put in as prompts to burn through your $10.
Now obviously if you're doing a lot of—and you've also got to allow, sorry, for the data to come out. So you're talking about half a million words. Obviously, you're doing a lot of high volume stuff. You can burn through this very quickly. But it's $10. It’s nothing. The cost per contact is absolutely minimal. So I think the important thing to say is, this is not expensive to do. It’s something you can do. And it’s something you could do with next to no pricing.
However, the big question is time. So the first thing to say is, all these tools are no code. Zapier, in particular, is pretty straightforward to use. Make is a little more complicated. But the way I always explain this to people is that, you know, typically you'll sit there for an hour scratching your head trying to work out how to do something and then two minutes to set it up and get it going.
So it is quite difficult to get up to speed with these tools. There is a learning curve and also to understand exactly how to interface between these different systems. It takes a little bit of time. And also, if you’re returning a lot of data, it can come back in different formats. So if you’re not familiar with JSON, which is a very standard way of returning data, again, you can end up scratching your head trying to work out what’s going on.
It's certainly something everybody on this call would be able to do. It may not be something you'd want to spend the time on. And so we recommend getting up to speed. Professionals can definitely speed up the process. We've got experience of doing this. We've worked with our own systems, as well as working with integrating with other people's systems.
And the important thing to say is mistakes can be expensive. And as you'll see in the picture, even with the new image generation tools, ChatGPT didn’t quite manage to spell “database” right. But if you do automate things and you let it run, and your automation runs over all the contacts, there is a theoretical risk. You could overwrite your entire CRM’s data, something you really don’t want to do.
So what I strongly recommend is getting some advice in terms of the setup, the configuration, and then using it and copying it. Once you’ve got a particular AI automation that, for example, adds a sales picture, adds a company description, it then becomes very easy to, for example, have a line for an email that’s added into a different field. So changing what you’ve got already is much easier than creating things from scratch. So get some automations that you can build on. That would definitely be my recommendation.
So let’s summarize. I mean, what should we do? So there’s five things I think we should do. One is we should start experimenting. It may be that AI is not going to help you hugely, but I’m pretty sure if you try different things, there’ll be some areas where AI can really help either your marketing or your sales.
And I would start with the simple things. Data enrichment, adding an extra bit of data into a field is probably the simplest thing to do, either in your CRM or in your marketing automation platform. It’s really easy to do. If you set it up right, you’re not going to do anything other than overwrite data in the data enrichment field, which you can always rebuild through AI.
Definitely make sure you use the right tools. I would recommend certainly looking at the paid benefits. A great example is Zapier where the free version absolutely would do our data enrichment where we enter an email and it fills in all the fields. But you’ll have to sit there waiting for a period of time for it to fill data in. Whereas if you pay for it, you then get a much faster response rate. So I would strongly recommend paying for the tools because they’re really cheap.
When you're testing, I mean, this is super important, you know, because you've got automations that potentially are writing back and potentially writing over existing data, test really carefully and get advice. You don't want to make mistakes here. You want to be really cautious because your data is so incredibly valuable.
And then what are the five mistakes to avoid? Well, I mean, the first thing is assuming that AI is not going to help you. AI probably is going to help you. Don't assume everything could be manual. Think of what you can do to automate things. The more you can automate, the more effective it's going to be. And don't forget that if you look at, say, enriching contact data, even if you're only going to access 10% of that data, even so, the cost per contact is still tiny. The cost of these tools is so small that it's worth enriching more data than you're ever going to use, because it's there ready when you need it.
The next thing I'd say is don't ask AI to do too much. And this is the example about whether you should ask AI to write a complete email or whether you should ask it to write just one sentence of the email or even put a phrase into an email. I would always strongly recommend limiting it down. I know that there's always lots of fun with hallucinations. I think the latest thing that people are playing about with ChatGPT and they're desperately trying to fix is that you can make up sayings and ask ChatGPT what they mean. ChatGPT just, you know, comes back and explains them. So if you ask, for example, ChatGPT, what does the saying, you know, "never lick a badger twice" mean? It'll come back as though it's a really common saying.
So, you know, don't trust AI to do too much. Be really careful unless you're manually going to check it. And if you can manually check it, I think it's definitely worth it. The more you constrain it, the less risk. If you're asking it to write complete emails, I probably would want to check that manually, at least for the first, you know, 100 or so emails to make me feel confident that the vast majority of those emails are going to be good. Because bad emails are very, very obvious.
I would also say don't overcomplicate projects. I mean, if you look at our simple Zapier, you know, three-step approach — got a new contact, add a bit of data into AI field and upload it back to the system. You know, three steps, nothing difficult. Don't feel this has to be complicated.
And finally, as marketers, and I think this is really important, we shouldn't forget that we can help other people. So, you know, the example I gave there was three bullet points effectively for things we could pitch to potential customers. So we're helping the sales team go out and sell as marketers. There's nothing wrong with that. It's definitely a thing worth doing.
So let's summarize. As I said, if you've got any questions, please do throw them into the chat. The first thing is, I think as marketers, we can make better use of AI. The biggest benefits also are going to be from repetitive tasks — these things we set and forget, and they automatically do things. Even if, as I say, a significant percentage of them never get used again, the ones you use will be brilliant because they'll be there and ready. So automation really is one of the ways to maximize your use of AI.
I think it's possible to do much more than you think. You can absolutely generate 100% customized emails using AI. You can absolutely generate customized landing pages using AI. And you can route people to get a pure customized landing page. So I think it's possible to do a lot more than people imagine, even with tools that apparently have no AI integration, because these middleware tools are going to help.
But don't trust AI. Be really careful. There are so many examples of AI-generated emails that have made it onto the internet because they're so cringely bad. So don't ever trust AI. Make sure you check and make sure you put guardrails in. Limit what it's doing.
And then I would say definitely the way to start is to get help and make sure you've got someone who understands the middleware, understands AI, who can get you started. And then once you've got that, feel free to copy and modify. And hopefully, if we do all this, we'll move from us sitting at the desks to the AI being stressed and we'll be on the sofa having a great time.
Well, I hope you've found this interesting. Just whilst you're thinking about questions, the next webinar we're going to do is going to be on the 20th of May. And we're going to talk about attribution. So again, looking at marketing tools. But if you've ever looked at attribution, we're going to explain why it's the biggest marketing fairy tale ever. So hopefully that will be fun and look forward to having you join us there.
Right. I really appreciate your time on this webinar. If you've got any questions, please do feel free to pop them into the chat. And I will try and do my best to answer them.
OK, let's have a look. Oh, so this is very interesting. So I have a question here saying, where do I think the industry would be if AI wasn't around? I'm going to be a little bit cheeky here. I think the industry would be roughly where we are today. Because I think the reality is, in many cases, we're using AI as an advisor, as a coworker, rather than necessarily as a tool.
So, you know, to give you a good example, a lot of us, if we're asked to brainstorm a name for an event, say, first place we'll go is ChatGPT. And it might help us come up with some better ideas, it might help us do it a little bit quicker, but it's not really changing what we do or how we approach the industry. I think what we need to do as an industry is to start using these automations. And then that's actually going to move us into a very different place.
We're going to have much better personalization. We're going to be able to, for example, have business development reps reach out much more effectively. And I think that's going to move us forward. So I think my argument would be that actually today, AI hasn't made as much impact as it's going to make in the next year or two. And to me, that's why it's so important to automate.
Let me just check, see if there's anything else. OK. There's a question here that's asking about APIs and how do you find out about APIs and which tools have APIs?
Well, I mean, the answer is that we know, for example, ChatGPT has already got an API, so there's APIs available to AI systems. They are accessed using slightly different credits to your ChatGPT subscription, but they're available, they're easy, and they're typically built into systems now.
If you've got a CRM or a marketing automation system, that almost certainly has an API. And if you've got a major system, that almost certainly is built into Zapier and Make already. So these tools are already going to know how to talk to them.
There are a couple of challenges around that. So the first is, if you're in a big enterprise, I would be amazed if the team responsible for the instance of your marketing automation platform hasn't locked off the API so you can't use it. So you need to get access. And the way you get access is by getting something called a key. So that might take quite a time inside a large enterprise to get access.
Inside a small company, typically it's very easy. You just ask the person who's the admin of your system, can I have the API key? And they'll give it to you. And then you load that into the system, and it's literally as simple as that.
So you tell the middleware, so Make or Zapier, what your API key is, and it will log you in automatically through the API, and it just works. It really is as simple as a couple of cut and pastes. So I would say it's not difficult at all to implement the APIs, and the vast majority of modern marketing software will have APIs already enabled. So the vast majority will have them.
OK. I think that's a good point to start. We've hit the 40-minute mark, which is certainly where we want to finish with questions.
If anybody does have any more questions or they'd like to understand how they can start adding AI-generated content into their marketing automation or CRM tool or automate any other part of integrating AI with any of their marketing systems, please do let me know. My email's there: mike@napierb2b.com.
Those of you that are clients will know that I'm an absolute geek, so I love talking about this stuff. Those of you who are not, you know, please do talk to me and ask me your questions because it's something I really enjoy talking about.
I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. And I hope we can see you in May when we talk about why attribution is the biggest marketing fairy tale. Thanks very much.
Navigating the Evolving Landscape of Marketing Automation Tools
In this episode of the Marketing Automation Moment podcast, Hannah and Mike discuss exciting developments in the marketing automation space, including ActiveCampaign's partnership with Wix, and HubSpot's acquisition of Dashworks, an AI company that enhances internal document search capabilities. The conversation further explores HubSpot's commitment to user training, emphasising the importance of structured training sessions for different skill levels to improve user engagement and retention.
To dive deeper into the topic of AI integration in marketing, be sure to check out our recent webinar, "How to Integrate AI Into Your Marketing Campaigns Today." https://napier-partnership-limited.webinargeek.com/how-to-integrate-ai-into-your-marketing-campaigns-today
- The Marketing Automation Moment on Apple Podcast
- The Marketing Automation Moment on Spotify
- The Marketing Automation Moment on napierb2b.com
About Napier
Napier is a PR-lead, full service marketing agency that specialises in the B2B technology sector. We work closely with our clients to build campaigns, focusing on achieving results that have a significant positive impact on their businesses and which, above all, ensure maximum return on their investment.
About Mike Maynard
Mike is the Managing Director/CEO of Napier, a PR and marketing agency for B2B technology companies. A self-confessed geek who loves talking about technology, he believes that combining the measurement, accountability and innovation that he learnt as an engineer with a passion for communicating ensures Napier delivers great campaigns and tangible return on investment.
About Hannah Wehrly
Hannah is the Head of Business Development and Marketing at Napier and leads on pitching, proposal writing, lead nurturing, email marketing, social media and content creation. Hannah joined the Napier team back in 2017 as a Marketing Specialist after completing her degree in Marketing and Communications, and her role focuses on developing new relationships with potential clients.
Time Stamps
00:00:00 - Introduction to The Marketing Automation Moment Podcast
00:00:54 - ActiveCampaign and Wix Partnership
00:02:57 - HubSpot Acquires Dashworks
00:04:49 - The Need for AI in Marketing Automation
00:07:13 - Importance of Ongoing Training in Marketing Platforms
00:10:06 - HubSpot's Inbound Conference
00:11:44 - Spring Cleaning Your Marketing Automation Platform
00:15:00 – Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Follow Mike and Hannah:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Hannah Wehrly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-wehrly-b0706a107/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing Automation and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We’d also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast – Marketing B2B Technology: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/marketing-b2b-technology/id1485417724
Transcript: Navigating the Evolving Landscape of Marketing Automation Tools
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Hannah Wehrly
Hannah: Welcome to the Market Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Kelly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard. This is Napier's podcast to tell you about the latest news from the world of marketing automation.
Hannah: Welcome to the Market Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Whirly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard.
Hannah: Today we talk about the partnership between ActiveCampaign and Wix.
Mike: We discuss HubSpot's acquisition of AI company Dashworks.
Hannah: HubSpot's training.
Mike: And Hannah gets really excited about spring cleaning her marketing automation platform.
Hannah: Well, hi, Mike. Welcome back to another episode of Marketing Automation Moment. I'm really pleased to get you because I think you're a bit of a jet setter.
Mike: Hi, Hannah. Great to talk to you again. Yeah, it's been quite busy with a lot of travel. I'm actually off to Germany next week as well. So it's great to have a chance to sit down and talk about marketing automation.
Hannah: Definitely. Well, look, let's kick off. We've got a lot to cover today and I have to just forewarn you, we are talking about HubSpot a lot, so my inner fan might little bit. But let's kick off talking about someone else and this is ActiveCampaign. Now, I was really pleased because I was looking around, you know, what's going on in the landscape. And actually, ActiveCampaign have just announced a partnership with a company called Wix. Now, Wix is a web page creator, and the idea is that Wix will be able to integrate with ActiveCampaign to make website creation easier whilst using a model. I mean, before we go into the actual details of what it means for the platform itself, I just have to say congrats to anyone who's doing their PR because they were everywhere. I mean, I saw a lot of coverage of this. So even to just be out in the news that much done.
Mike: Yeah, I think it was great. I mean, it's interesting because it really cements that active campaign positioning as being a tool designed for very small companies. I mean, Wix, I've used it with, you know, things like sports clubs and very little organizations tend to use Wix. It's one of the simplest web page creators. So I think ActiveCampaign has actually done something pretty smart here because people who frankly can't even build a website with conventional tools, they want something a bit simpler like Wix. They've now got access to marketing automation. So it could be an interesting opportunity to own that small end of the market.
Hannah: Oh, definitely. And I have to say as well, it is nice to have something in the news that isn't to do with AI. Now, AI is great, but it's really great to actually just see another platform, another together to create really something
Mike: It's also quite nice to see that two companies are working together and collaborating. I mean, it seems that so much that we talk about in Marketing Automation Moment is all about, you know, large companies acquiring small companies to get little bits of technology. And sometimes that's great. Sometimes actually the customers of those smaller companies can lose out. I think by doing a partnership, you've got the best of all worlds there. So I really like the fact that it's a partnership deal rather than an acquisition.
Hannah: Oh, that's a fantastic point, Mike. But let's move on because I want to talk about someone a little bit bigger. Now, as I mentioned, it's a bit HubSpot focus this podcast episode, but I think it's really worthwhile. And the first thing I really wanted to kick off was talk about the news of HubSpot actually acquiring Dashworks. Now, Dashworks is basically an AI agent that allows you to search your internal documents. Now, this is really cool. I think it provides a really easy AI integration to support marketers. But I wanted to hear what you thought about it because I know you actually did a webinar yesterday about how to integrate AI into marketing campaigns. So what do you actually think about a tool like this?
Mike: Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, HubSpot, they've got their AI tools already integrated into HubSpot. They've probably been arguably, if not one of perhaps, you know, even the most advanced in terms of integrating AI. And yet they're still having to acquire companies to fill out their AI offerings. So to me, what it says is that we're a long way away from getting the AI functionality that marketers need and want. into our marketing automation platforms. And that's really interesting because people using HubSpot obviously have some AI features, as for example, does Salesforce, your friend Einstein. But I think if you look at some of the other market automation platforms, they're a long way behind. If HubSpot haven't made it, there's a real need to add more AI into marketing automation. And that's really what the webinar was all about, was how you can do it now, rather than waiting for the tools vendors to catch up.
Hannah: I think that's a great point, Mike. And I think, again, it goes back to something that you said a little bit earlier when we were talking about ActiveCampaign, that even these big companies are having to buy the small companies in order to get the functionality they need to be able to keep up with the evolving landscape.
Mike: Yeah, and I think it's interesting that the vendors, they want to control things. They want to own everything, which is why HubSpot's Bulk Dash works. But actually, if you look at it, you don't necessarily need to do that. It's the modern world today. Everything's cloud-based. Everything has an API. And I won't go too technical for the listeners here, but basically, all the systems that you need have the ability to connect together. And that's what we talked about in the webinar, showing people how you can take what you might call a dumb marketing automation platform that's got no AI. And actually, with simple integration that really doesn't take more than a few minutes to do, you can actually then get AI generated emails within that system. So to me, I think the promise of AI is really exciting. And it's going to be really interesting to see how many people take advantage of it or whether marketers are going to sit back and wait for the tools to catch up. Because if you do, you know, you could be left behind, your competitors could be actually much more proactive because clearly we're not there yet.
Hannah: I totally agree. And I think I actually just want to reference one example, Mike, and I believe I'm right in saying this, but I mean, one of the easiest integrations that we have is through our marketing automation platform, Sharpspring, through to a contact research tool called Apollo. Now we've used Zapier to connect those and it's all automated and make sure that the platform's updated. But if we were just waiting for Sharpspring to do updates, have that upgrade, allow us to do that, we would be doing not a great job right now in our marketing for Napier itself.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely and it's a really interesting point because we've now got the ability you can enter an email and all the contact details are filled out. It's also really important if you want to use AI that you give the AI as much information about the contact as you possibly can and so this content enrichment It's a key part of using AI. Get as much data about the contact, because that will then let you create better and more complete emails. Or if it's not emails, maybe it's just a sentence or some customization information, or perhaps a different landing page. But all of that's really important. So I think marketers now particularly with the importance of AI, probably do need to think about doing some of this integration and using a couple of tools together, rather than relying on a single tool to do everything. Because frankly, those single integrated tools, they've got some catching up to do.
Hannah: Absolutely. And I can't resist, Mike, so I'm just going to do a little plug for our webinar. We'll make sure that the link to the on-demand version is in the show notes. And so listeners, if you're there, please watch it. Let us know what you think. And if you have any questions, please do reach out because it was a very interesting webinar, although I'm a little bit biased. Let's move on, Mike. Actually, something that HubSpot is doing really well, and we've always thought this about HubSpot, I was browsing their webinars, looking at what they're talking about, and they had some really good sessions on training. And what I really loved there was beginner training as well as intermediate training. So it was all sorts of different levels. Now, I do think it varies, but HubSpot's great at this, other platforms not so much. Do you think market automation platforms do provide enough training to their users?
Mike: Oh, that's a great question. Probably applies to all marketing technology platforms. So, I mean, obviously, there's been a lot of documentation about HubSpot, how they realized that actually the big problem was, was people were signing up to HubSpot and then leaving after the first year because they weren't using the tool. And HubSpot worked out not only that actually getting people to use the tool was going to increase the stickiness, increase customer retention, but actually they could charge for some of that. And so they started charging for onboarding. Now, I think what we see in the market today is that there's a lot of companies offering onboarding, but very few at the level or with the quality of HubSpot. And to me, it's not so much about charging for onboarding. It's much more about the quality of the training that makes you use the tools. I mean, what do you think, Hannah?
Hannah: I mean, I do agree. And to me as well, I think there's a very big difference between the onboarding period and then needing ongoing training. So onboarding is about, you know, getting things up to speed. This is how you can do the simple automations, emails, you know, whatever it may be. But then often companies are still left to just then figure it out by themselves. Because one of the things, you know, we've talked about in the past is that you have to continuously optimize. And, you know, we're talking a bit more about that in our insightful tip of the week in a minute, but often multi-automation platforms just go, okay, cool. You're on boarded, have a great time. And yet actually you don't still get that ongoing training, that ongoing help. And that's actually where it's really needed because you don't just set something up and leave it like that forever. And if you are doing that, then you're doing it wrong.
Mike: Absolutely. And one of the things we were talking about before we started recording is the way HubSpot's approached some of this new training is actually by giving it levels. So you get beginner, intermediate, advanced. And I think that's a great idea because they've recognized that it's not just the onboarding, it's not just being able to send your first email, it's about being able to do more and more as you learn more about the platform. you know you were absolutely right when you talked about that I think it's a really great point they've understood why they're doing the training and I think that's going to definitely help HubSpot and make it much more sticky.
Hannah: Definitely. And I mean, the other thing that HubSpot does do, and this is huge, so this won't surprise any of our listeners, and that is the inbound conference. I want to just have a really quick chat about this because it's hosted in September like it is every year. But normally up to this point, it's actually been hosted in Boston where they're headquartered. And what's really interesting is it's actually being hosted in San Francisco this year. And I believe, Mike, you know a little bit about the kind of expedition conference hall that it's being hosted in.
Mike: Yeah, it's really interesting. And you've got to wonder why they're doing it. So for listeners that don't know, HubSpot was founded in Boston, which is why the Inbound Conference was held in Boston. And obviously, for us Europeans, we're both based in Europe. So actually, it really helps to have a conference on the East Coast rather than the West Coast of America. But what HubSpot's done is they've moved it to San Francisco. And I can see lots of reasons why they do that. You know, one might just be size of venue, but it could also be around positioning the company. Although you do wonder because, you know, perhaps the most famous conference in San Francisco is Dreamforce. And you just wonder whether maybe HubSpot has got a little bit of Salesforce envy. I don't know. What do you think, Hannah?
Hannah: Oh, I like that a bit of jealousy. Yes. I think it'll be interesting. And I think as we get closer to it, and then seeing how people react will be really interesting. I don't think they've come out and said any specific reasons yet. But maybe that will come clear as the conference actually takes place.
Mike: Yeah. And actually, I mean, I've been to quite a few inbounds. I'm not yet signed up for this one. I'm still on the fence. So we'll have to see what happens.
Hannah: Definitely. Well, let's move on to our insightful tip of the week. Now, this is a really interesting one, and I want to have a chat about spring cleaning your marketing automation platform. Now, I think companies get things running, they could have the most brilliant, efficient marketing automation platform in the world, and yet they still leave contacts in the database that will never be useful. And what I mean is that they will maybe approach some target companies that have these contacts in their database for years and years and years, but actually those people could not even work there anymore. And it can be a bit of an ego thing, but I think personally for me, I love a spring clean and I would rather have a smaller list that I know is really high quality, that I know I'm targeting the right people, than thousands and thousands and thousands which aren't actually making any difference or generating any results. I don't know what you think, Mike.
Mike: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think to some extent there's a lot of this just in case, let's keep everything just in case. And it results in, you know, you and I have seen this, there are companies out there with more contact records that are hard bounces. People who've left the company, you can't contact them, you can't access them, they've gone. more of them than actually active contacts. And also you're paying potentially for some of those contacts. So from my point of view, I think it's a bit of an ego thing. I think people are a bit scared to let go of contact data. But of course, one of the things, and we haven't talked about this for a while, but GDPR is quite important. You should legally actually spring clean your database. So it's not only the fact that You know, spring cleaning is a good policy. It's a good thing to do. And obviously you like it, Hannah, so therefore it's very important. But also it's actually a legal requirement in some cases. And I think people forget that.
Hannah: Oh, definitely, Mike. I think that's a really valuable point to make. And I think I'd add to it as well as people don't spring clean and then they wonder why the results of their campaigns are so bad. So, you know, these emails are going to these people and it's like, God, I've got such high bounce rates, you know, nobody's opening. And it's, well, are you actually sending to people, as you mentioned, who said exist in these companies, or is it just going to emails that generally don't exist anymore?
Mike: Yeah, and I think that's a really difficult thing. I mean, you and I know that we've had people who've been, for example, receiving our newsletter for years that don't seem to be engaged, and then will come to us and actually become a prospect. So, spring cleaning, it's a really important thing to do, but it's very difficult. To me, if you've got people there that are hard bounces, they should go. They're not going to help, really. I don't see anyone reporting on the number of clicks from hard bounces, because pretty much the number's always zero. So I think those should go. But there is a question about how you deal with contacts that may or may not be active. And particularly, you know, when you're sending things that are like newsletter update content, a lot of people can sit there and lurk. And so I think you've got to make sensible decisions. It's not a case of cleaning out everybody who's not clicked on an email in the last you know, quarter or six months. I've seen companies with very draconian approaches to removing contacts, even if they've not engaged for a short time. And that could be a particular problem, for example, if someone goes on maternity leave, particularly in Europe, where you can have long maternity leaves, that contact's still active, it's still relevant. But when they come back, they've been removed from your database because they've not engaged whilst they've been away. So I think it's something that needs a bit of thought. But definitely, you know, now's the time for a good spring clean. So take a look at your marketing automation platform and remove the data that really isn't helping you.
Hannah: I think that is brilliant advice to leave the podcast today, Mike. So thanks so much for your time and for such a great conversation.
Mike: Well, thanks, Hannah. Great topics as always. Really enjoy chatting to you again.
Hannah: Thanks for listening to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast.
Mike: Don't forget to subscribe in your favourite podcast application and we'll see you next time.
Harnessing Intent Data: How to Drive Effective B2B Campaigns – Riaz Kanani – Radiate B2B
Harnessing Intent Data: How to Drive Effective B2B Campaigns
Riaz Kanani, CEO and founder of Radiate B2B returns to the podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of B2B marketing. Mike and Riaz explore the shift in buyer behaviour, the rise of account-based marketing (ABM), and the importance of intent data in driving effective campaigns.
Riaz shares insights on common mistakes in ABM strategies and highlights the role of AI in shaping the future of marketing.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Radiate B2B
Radiate B2B is a B2B advertising and intent data platform that helps companies reach their prospects at the right time, in the right place and with the right message. Radiate B2B has been nominated for Emerging Martech Vendor and UK Martech vendor of the year by B2B Marketing.
About Riaz Kanani
Riaz is the founder and CEO of Radiate B2B. Riaz has a history of building and scaling successful businesses and has been nominated for Entrepreneur of the Year multiple times. He is listed as a Top 25 global account based marketing thought leader by B2B Marketing and one of the Top Asian Stars in UK Tech by Diversity UK.
He built one of the world’s largest video advertising networks and after exiting to Silverpop, scaled their presence internationally. Silverpop helped to set out the best practice for B2B marketing a decade ago and was a leader in B2B marketing automation and content marketing before exiting to IBM to create its marketing cloud platform.
He has sat on the DMA email marketing council helping to set best practice for the email marketing industry, judge its awards and help shape data privacy and the use of data in the UK and Europe. He regularly writes and speaks on the BBC and elsewhere on the intersection between marketing, business and technology, its best practice and future trends.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Riaz Kanani
00:01:50 - The Shift in B2B Buyer Behavior
00:03:09 - Evolution of Account-Based Marketing (ABM)
00:06:34 - Common Mistakes in ABM Campaigns
00:09:07 - The Role of Intent Data in Marketing
00:15:22 - Customer Success Stories with Radiate B2B
00:19:20 - Using Radiate B2B for Internal Marketing
00:20:42 - Future of MarTech and AI Integration
00:23:00 - Final Thoughts on ABM and Marketing Trends
00:23:19 - Best Marketing Advice Received
00:24:16 - Advice for Aspiring Marketers
00:25:23 - Conclusion and Invitation for Future Discussions
Quotes
"By the time they reach your website to convert, 70-80% of those companies have already shortlisted who they want to buy from." Riaz Kanani, CEO and Founder at Radiate B2B.
"If you don't have a level of insight which tells you whether they're coming into market or they're in market, then there's a very high likelihood that project is going to fail." Riaz Kanani, CEO and Founder at Radiate B2B.
"Intent data is merely a signal that attention is being given to a particular problem or area." Riaz Kanani, CEO and Founder at Radiate B2B.
Follow Riaz:
Riaz Kanani on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/riazkanani/
Radiate B2B website: https://radiateb2b.com/
Radiate B2B on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radiateb2b/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Riaz Kanani at Radiate B2B
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Riaz Kanani
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Riaz Kanani. Riaz is actually a returning guest. He's the CEO and founder of Radiate B2B, and this is his second appearance on the podcast. Welcome to the podcast again, Riaz.
Riaz: Hey, great to be here. Great to be here. Thanks for the invite.
Mike: It's great to have you on the podcast again. I mean, we've talked before, but I think it'd be a really good idea if you could just refresh the listeners' memories about your career and why you decided to found Radiate B2B.
Riaz: Yeah, so shocking, I think I've now spent 25 years in the Martech Strike Agency world, building various cutting-edge platforms, usually using data. And about seven years ago, we started Radiate with this idea that the way B2B buyers were buying was changing. There was a generational shift where more and more of the research was happening away from your website rather than on your website. And research last year suggested that actually even by the time they reach your website to convert and stick their hand up, 70-80% of those companies have already shortlisted who they want to buy from. And because of that, we started to develop and focus on what can we do outside of the website. And that's our view on the world, is helping marketers get out in front of companies before they come to your website.
Mike: And that's really interesting. I mean, you're trying to actually, you know, raise awareness prior to the website. So, I mean, what you're doing is a lot of effectively outbound marketing, going out and trying to reach prospects. Is that how you summarize it? And why do you feel it needed a different approach?
Riaz: Well, a lot of the B2B world back then, even a large amount of it today, when you're thinking about outreach beyond the sort of direct response outreach of email, you're predominantly talking about large-scale advertising, social media advertising, sponsorship, those sorts of things, and the challenge with that is it's very broad. For most B2B companies, they don't actually want that day one. They want to be able to target their particular niche, and they want to be able to know who they've targeted. And all the solutions I talked about just now don't serve that at all. And the big growth area in B2B marketing in recent years has been account-based marketing, which is this very idea of identifying and nurturing specific companies through to close, not just one by one as it was traditionally, but going right the way up to hundreds or even low thousands today.
Mike: And, I mean, account-based marketing obviously is where a lot of B2B companies start when they're really trying to focus down. But there's been a lot of things happen in ABM in terms of new tools, new entrants. I mean, how do you see the whole ABM world changing over the last couple of years? Do you think it's been dramatic? Or do you think there's just a lot more people piling in with similar tools?
Riaz: Yeah, I think what we've seen is that classic product life cycle curve of very strong early adoption. I think in the last couple of years, 22, 24, we were basically crossing the chasm. And we've come out of that chasm now to a different type of market. What the big shift seems to be now within the ABM space, it's twofold. And twofold in the sense of looking at two sides of the market, really. So on the one hand, we're seeing the early adopters of ABM really integrated into their wider demand generation programs. And so the ABM techniques are now becoming a part of a much bigger, broader B2B market, which is great. It means that effectively ABM is now part of your standard set of tools that you go to market with. But the other big change is the expansion of ABM across the marketplace. So it's no longer your larger enterprise companies who can afford the big all-in-one platforms going after enterprise. It's now smaller point solutions whereby smaller mid-sized companies are able to just take what they want. and implement those parts of it piecemeal, if you like. And obviously that's where we're coming in as well with our focus on intent data and the company-targeted advertising piece of the puzzle.
Mike: That makes sense. And I want to drill down into what Radiate does in a minute. But, you know, I'm intrigued by the fact that ABM is still being adopted by that midsize company audience. I mean, what really do you think held people back? Was it just the cost of the tools? Or was it complexity, the time required, the expertise? What were the big barriers? So certainly the cost of the tools was one part, but you didn't need
Riaz: tools to do ABM. The tools support the program rather than make the program, if that makes sense. And so the biggest couple of summing blocks is partly the definition of ABM. We dropped ABM as a phrase from our go-to-market activity a long time ago. and are much more focused on, well, actually, what are we doing to your target audience that's helping you as a business, right? What does it do to your pipeline? What does it do to awareness? Those types of messaging. Because of the confusion around the definition of ABM, I think the market has got to a point whereby it doesn't matter what the definition of ABM is now. The techniques that are sitting underneath it are well understood. And companies are coming at it from the perspective, well, I want to do X. And the fact that X happens to be inside ABM doesn't matter anymore. And I think that's why we're seeing much bigger adoption.
Mike: That's interesting. I mean, obviously, it's difficult. And I think a lot of marketers are approaching ABM, and they are uncertain about what does ABM mean? Does it matter to them? I mean, what mistakes do marketers make when they say, we're going to start an ABM campaign, or we're going to run an ABM campaign? And how can they be doing it better? There's a bunch of things, right?
Riaz: So first and foremost, understanding who you want to target. is the first big, big hurdle to get over. You have to remember that in any one moment in time, a small percentage of your market is in market. If you take the research, it's 5%. Now, if that's the case and you are taking, let's say, 100 or 200 companies, which is often the number that gets settled on, sometimes it's smaller, 50, sometimes it's a bit bigger, but regardless, it's a small percentage of your overall market. And the problem with that is if you don't have a level of insight which tells you whether they're coming into market or they're in market, then there's a very high likelihood, just from basic maths, that that project is going to fail. because the chances are those companies are not in market and they're not going to react. Until they're in market, all you're doing is building brand awareness, which, let's face it, if all we wanted to do was to build brand awareness, we'd just do a big, broad-scale brand campaign. No need for the ABM side. So that's the first big, big thing. And then the second thing after that is really about caring about your data. Just like with AI, if you're running an ABM program and the companies that you're targeting have the wrong associated data with it, then you may think you're targeting Coca-Cola but actually you're targeting some random company elsewhere in the world. So knowing and being on top of your data is also key. And then the last one is relatively new and I think it reflects the maturity of the market as you get over those first two hurdles really. is actually understanding your market in the first place. So a lot of ICP, Ideal Customer Profiles, consist of very broad criteria like industry X, companies of certain size or certain revenue. in a certain industry type stuff and that is very broad and doesn't really address actually the problems that you're trying to solve within your marketplace and you want to be able to narrow it down to the problems that you're solving and the solutions that you're offering and then segment based on that.
Mike: That's really good advice. I mean, I love the understanding the market, particularly, and solving problems rather than targeting a demographic. I think that's really helpful. We've skirted around the issue of intent data. I mean, obviously, Radiate B2B is an intent platform. So people, again, have different views of what intent data is and how you use it. So do you want to give us the Radiate view of what intent data is and maybe talk about how people can use some of the data that you provide to them?
Riaz: Yeah, so our intent data powers advertising first and foremost, and there's a reason why we started there. Intent data was seen as this silver bullet, this idea that you can identify this company that's in market, and they're definitively in market, and they're going to be interested in talking to you. Neither of those statements is true. The reality is that intent data is merely a signal. that attention is being given to a particular problem or area. So that's the first thing. They could be researching because something's grabbed their attention, and they don't know they have a problem, and they're still at that very, very early phase. And then they may get to understanding that problem and think, well, that's not a priority for us. Well, no matter what you do, you're not going to get in front of those companies. But they will be identified as having intent. Likewise with wanting to talk to you, We're data guys. We track and measure everything. And one of the things that we were able to do was to see a picture across market and see some companies' pipelines across market. And we were watching to see how different companies engaged with potential buyers. One company's got very good brand awareness, very good relationships. The other company has very minimal brand awareness, and in this particular case had very little relationships in this specific area. We were advertising to the intent data, same list, across two different companies. One company was getting a 3x increase in response rate. The other company was not getting very much at all. The reason for that was because When companies are going to be interested in talking to you, they need to have some context about who you are. They need to understand why they should talk to you versus why they should talk to somebody else. That may mean that you need to be spending, you know, in the case of the second company who wasn't getting much responses, basically we got over that problem. by a much longer-term program of investing in greater brand awareness, basically introducing why they were a strong player in the market to be listened to. And once we did that, we started to see the metrics grow accordingly. Unsurprising, really. But it is that understanding of context and how to use intent data. The other thing that we do, which I gloss over, is we don't rely on one source for intent data. We collect intent data from the most obvious ones, like browsing across the internet. also first party by looking at what activity is happening on your website. But then we also pull in advertising data from LinkedIn or from the display to look at which companies are engaging. If you think about display, display is a brand-led platform. You really don't run display campaigns to do lead generation. You do it to build your brand as cheaply as you possibly can, really. So when companies do engage, with your display advertising, that's a really big indicator that they are interested in this topic. And we found that was the earliest indicator of intent because we don't need to process tons of data, third parties aren't processing tons of data to get to the idea that they're showing signal based on their browsing activity.
Mike: I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. But I think the first thing to say is, it's really interesting. Brand is cool again. It is, isn't it? I mean, Google a few years ago released some data that said that businesses that did display brand advertising got better results on search ads. And everyone was like, wow. Oh, that's unbelievable. And then moved on and just ran search ads. But now I think what you're saying is really true. There's no magic bullets here. You've got to build a combined campaign. And to me, that's interesting, because what you're saying is you have to go beyond just using that intent data, and you have to also build a platform. And is that something that you offer with Radiate B2B, or are you purely intent-driven? We absolutely do.
Riaz: So we really solve for ABM advertising programs, so taking your ABM list and targeting them specifically with advertising across display and LinkedIn. And then on the other side, powering those advertising campaigns with the intent data. as well, so that you don't need to be worrying about manually, I mean if you think about it, if you're taking a list of companies every single week and then having to manage that into an advertising campaign, that's a bit of a nightmare, as well as the fact that companies will drop in and drop out of showing intent and we take away all of that. We basically enforce management of the campaign so that a company will see ads for a minimum period of time so you know they'll have seen enough ads to be able to recall your brand basically.
Mike: And I'm interested, are there industries where the kind of intent data you generate is more effective? I mean, I know if you look at, some people generate intent from social, what's being discussed on social. If you're targeting defense technology companies, they don't generally talk about what they're developing on social media, mainly because anyone who's done that has been locked up for breach of secrets act. So I'm intrigued, are there, with your method, because you're monitoring engagement, Are there industries where you get better results, or is it pretty much equal across all industries?
Riaz: Yeah, so, I mean, generically, it's companies that are selling to enterprise. That's the first sort of tier, if you like. And generally speaking, that's where we're going to be adding the most value. Sure, if you're a defence company, I'm not sure you'd buy advertising anyway. Your target market is quite small, and there isn't a need for it. But the reality is that we as marketers cannot track every single individual on the planet, technically it's possible. I'm pretty sure most of us will agree that's not a good place for us to be where we're tracking how people behave and act at an individual level. So everything we're doing is at a company level and location. What that means is you have to have a targeted persona. So you need to know that your persona is definable as at least a function.
Mike: That makes sense. So you need, you know, fairly large organisations to reach but very specific targets. I mean, do you have some examples of how some of your customers have actually used the platform to run great campaigns?
Riaz: Yeah, it's… So the intent-powered campaigns are my favourite because it's so easy to show uplift in performance. We run campaigns with one particular company, it's a mid-sized marketing agency, actually. In North America, they were targeting big enterprise, very big enterprise. Their A-list of companies, their ABM list of companies was doing well, in the sense that, and we'll see this typically, it's interesting how consistent this is, 20 to 30% of companies that you target, assuming you're targeting at least 100 companies, will engage either directly or indirectly with your campaign each quarter, so over three months. With an intent-driven campaign, it's 3x the performance. So you'll typically see 20 to 30% of companies engage within a month. So three times faster. Overall, I'd normally say two to three times faster, but for this example, it was three times faster. And also, they're more likely to click. So whereas a campaign that's targeting an ABM list, what we'll see is companies come in directly to the website. 60, 40, 70, 30 in favor of coming in directly. With an intent campaign, we'll see two, two and a half X uplift in click rates. So dramatic changes. Another one, actually this builds on your point about Google and showing search uplift. We had one of those amazing clients that tracks everything, every channel, impact by us across all those channels, and so we were able to watch and see Uplift at every stage of the pipeline. and how their email marketing saw an uplift. Their search advertising saw a 20-something, 28 I think it was, percent uplift post our campaign or during our campaign running for them. And anyone who knows about advertising knows that when you run advertising campaigns, it has a knock-on effect on every other channel, just because you have a couple of factors. Recency, recall, right? So if you recognize a brand, you'll pay it slightly more attention. Because you're giving it slightly more attention, you are slightly more likely to click through because it's of interest to you. And so there's that knock-on effect right the way through. So yeah, so there's those sorts of things that just help with driving pipelines.
Mike: That's really interesting. And I mean, I guess you use the platform to market Radiate as well. So are there some stories of how you've used it and seen benefits from the platform?
Riaz: Yeah. I mean, we use it, obviously, daily. It is actually really difficult for us to use it, because our target market is small to medium-sized companies. So the top end of our target market fits into this idea of selling to larger companies. But we build the platform for companies who sell primarily to large companies, not companies like ourselves. But it does work for even that small slice of our target market. And so we do display advertising. It's automatically targeting companies showing intent. We push the data into LinkedIn to target within LinkedIn. And we use the, I use the intent data that we generate. We sync it into HubSpot. So HubSpot's our sort of center of all data. And we push the data into there, and then I use that to then take action. We're primarily a social selling house. We don't do very much outbound email at all, so not cold anyway.
Mike: That's fascinating. I'd like to pivot a bit and look at the future. I mean, we've talked a bit about, you know, what's changed and what people are doing today and what works today. But, I mean, technology is changing all the time, particularly in marketing. I mean, what do you think is going to be the biggest changes in MarTech over the next, you know, five years? And what are you doing at Radi8 to prepare for it?
Riaz: So I'm hoping, I'm going to put my head on the chopping block and say that by the time this podcast goes live, we will have announced our first piece of technology, which I think is an indicator of where the world is going to go with AI. AI is obviously going to change everything in marketing. Marketing, fundamentally, is about putting the right message in the right place at the right time. All the marketing boils down to that, really. There's a lot of stuff outside of it, but it's what it boils down to. And AI is going to change the way where people are. It's going to change the types of messaging they want to receive. And timing is an interesting one. But we are building an interface that's going to allow you to take your AI, not our AI, your AI, and use it to advise on, in our case, the intent data. and also the advertising campaigns that you're doing. And so with our clients, each week I sit down and review our clients' campaigns and feedback to our clients as to what we should be thinking about next. strategically, and that could be new tests, it could be gaps that we've got in the campaigns, it could be the entire framework, upgrading the entire framework. The AI can advise on all of that already. Fundamentally all I'm doing is taking the data, analyzing the data, and then pointing out what the data shows, and AI is very good at doing that. So that's going to change from a marketer standpoint. From the person being marketed to standpoint, I mean, I think we end up with AI on our phones. I'm not sure I'm particularly keen on the idea, but I suppose it's not that different to everybody being glued to their phones with their heads down while walking, but I suspect we'll end up with earpieces. constantly in our head with the ability to talk back and forth to an AI and that's both amazing and terrifying at the same time.
Mike: I think we have to leave the discussion about ABM and the future on that amazing but terrifying point. Before you go, Riaz, we always like to ask a couple of general questions. So the first one is, what's the best piece of marketing advice someone else has given you?
Riaz: You know, I come back to this over and over again because I love it. I think it's illustrative of everything we have to do in marketing. And it's Ogilvy's quote about you never know which 50% of your spend is actually performing. I love that because at the end of the day, we will never have enough information to know. Attribution was always a farce. We all knew it. It just gave us a little bit of a glimpse into what's working. And it's only going to get harder. I don't see that getting any better in the sense of giving marketers insight. We're going to always be playing. in the dark a little bit, and we're having to test and try things and be bold. And yeah, that's the point.
Mike: I love that. It's amazing. Second question we ask is, if you're talking to someone who's about to start their career in marketing, what advice would you give them?
Riaz: I think there's never been a more exciting time to become a marketer. It's also potentially the easiest time to be a marketer. You can create a blog, you can create a fan page, create a YouTube channel, any number of things that you couldn't do 20 years ago at all. And so you can hone and practice your marketing before you even graduate from high school. So there's that element of it. You can play in the world of marketing without ever going and applying to be a marketer for somebody else sort of thing, which is great and allows you to understand whether you want to be a marketer in the first place I think. But the second thing I'd say is the last 10, 20 years, change has been constant. Change will continue to happen all the time. And I think if anything, there's greater opportunity as a marketer in the next 10 years to do something amazing for your company than there was in the last 10 years.
Mike: That's such a positive way to end up. I love that. Riaz, I mean, you've proven that you've got so many interesting insights, you know, second time on the podcast. And still it's brilliant. I think I got maybe a third of the way through my questions. So we'll have to look for a third, another return to the podcast. Riaz, it's been really good. Thank you very much for being on the podcast. Really great to be here. Enjoyed the conversation. And yeah, always happy to come back again. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Unlocking ABM Success: How Recotap Empowers Companies on LinkedIn
Ganesh Chithambalam, Co-founder at Recotap, explores how account-based marketing is evolving and discussed the challenges marketers face when it comes to effectively marketing their products.
Learn how Recotap is enhancing ABM by using LinkedIn as a high impact advertising platform and empowering smaller SaaS companies to run personalised campaigns. Ganesh also unpacks key topics such as understanding buyer intent, avoiding common pitfalls in traditional ABM strategies, and creating messaging that resonates with target audiences.
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About Ganesh
Ganesh Chithambalam is a seasoned entrepreneur with over 15 years of experience in the SaaS and marketing technology space. Before founding Recotap, he built and scaled 30+ high-growth SaaS products and a high-performance programmatic ad exchange. With a deep focus on performance marketing, automation, and account-based strategies, he brings a pragmatic, results-driven approach to solving complex B2B marketing challenges.
Ganesh is passionate about using data and technology to drive meaningful outcomes for marketing teams. Outside of work, he enjoys traveling, discovering local cultures, and experimenting in the kitchen.
About Recotap
Recotap is an Account-Based Marketing platform purpose-built for B2B marketers who want to run high-impact, personalised LinkedIn campaigns at scale. Designed to simplify complex ABM workflows, Recotap brings together data signals, audience segmentation, ad personalisation, and performance tracking into one unified platform.
By leveraging intent data, CRM insights, and website behaviour, Recotap helps marketing teams identify high-fit, in-market accounts and automatically activate 1:1 ad campaigns and personalised landing pages. Whether you're building awareness, accelerating pipeline, or influencing late-stage deals, Recotap enables full-funnel ABM execution with minimal effort.
Trusted by fast-growing SaaS and tech companies, Recotap is helping redefine how modern B2B teams approach demand generation, sales alignment, and marketing ROI.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 – Guest Introduction: Ganesh Chachambaland
00:00:43 – Ganesh's Career Journey and Founding RecoTap
00:03:38 – Challenges in Current ABM Campaigns
00:04:12 – Common Mistakes in ABM Marketing
00:06:24 – Intent Signals and Their Importance for SaaS
00:07:03 – Personalisation in ABM Campaigns
00:12:18 – Balancing Lead Generation and Brand Awareness
00:16:37 – Predictions for the Future of ABM and Marketing
00:18:26 – Valuable Marketing Advice Received
00:20:28 – Outro and Contact Information
Quotes
“The companies which are getting successful are the ones who are marketing it well.” - Ganesh Chithambalam, Co-founder at Recotap
"I think brand positioning and brand differentiation is very, very important.” - Ganesh Chithambalam, Co-founder at Recotap
Follow Ganesh:
Ganesh Chithambalam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ganesh-chithambalam/?originalSubdomain=in
Recotap website: https://www.recotap.com/
Recotap on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/recotap/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We’d also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
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Transcript: Interview with Ganesh Chithambalam at Recotap
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Ganesh Chithambalam
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Ganesh Chithambalam. Ganesh is the cofounder of Recotap. Welcome to the podcast, Ganesh. Hey, Mike. Nice to be here. Great to have you on the podcast, Ganesh. I'm really interested, you've formed Recotap. Can you tell us a little bit about your career and what made you get to the point where you felt that Recotap was the company you wanted to found and grow?
Ganesh: Yeah, it's been an interesting journey and I think it's an interesting story how we started Recotap. So I started my career as a programmer and I used to work at a couple of IT services companies where we started building apps. Then after a while at it, I thought, Hey, I should start a consulting company where we start building apps for other companies. Right. And while we primarily worked with startups, SaaS companies were trying to build SaaS solutions for real world problems out there. right? So we built close to 30 or 40 SaaS products. And what I found out was the companies which are getting successful were the ones who were marketing it well, right? They were really good products, but then companies, especially the SaaS founders, found it really struggling to market those products well. And that got me thinking, hey, I've built products for others for a long time, so why don't I build products for helping founders succeed once they build their SaaS products? And then we started understanding, hey, what kind of problems they are facing. And then SaaS companies finally used LinkedIn a lot. And then one thing led to another, and then we kind of figured out, hey, ABM is a product space where we want to build a product and where there's a lot of need for a long tail kind of companies trying to do ABM selling to large enterprises, but they don't have the budgets and resources to have a large ABM software or a team. And that was the space we wanted to play in. And then we launched Recotap, which is helping small SaaS companies implement ABM to close large value deals.
Mike: I think that's a great description of, you know, Recotap ad at a high level what it does and why it's needed. Perhaps we can just delve a little bit deeper into what you're actually doing to help marketers, you know, run ABM campaigns for SaaS products. So can you talk a little bit about how Recotap works and how your customers might use it to run great ABM campaigns?
Ganesh: So Recotap is a LinkedIn-only focused ABM product. So the primary challenge what we're solving is LinkedIn is a great advertising tool for B2B audiences. but it lacks tools to run an effective ABM strategy. So if you ever end up talking to a LinkedIn executive, they would say, Hey, minimum audience size should be 50,000 matched contacts, right? Which is too huge. And it's not really useful for anything more than a brand awareness campaign. So if you want to do ABM on LinkedIn, you really need to know, Hey, where in the buying journey is an account sitting? And then you have to use the right message for that account at the right time to get meaningful results. So essentially what RekruTab does is it helps B2B marketers run full funnel account-based marketing campaigns with the right amount of personalization, depending on the journey stage. So that's how I would sum up Recotap, right? It's a full funnel account-based marketing campaign purpose-built for LinkedIn.
Mike: And it's not just LinkedIn as well, because you also cover the development and optimization of landing pages as well, isn't that right?
Ganesh: Yes. Yeah, it's not just ads, right? When you start engaging an account, It's also important to engage them completely, right? Typically, what people do is they look at an ad, they click, they come to your website. Imagine if you could show content which is relevant for an account on the website as well. That's an additional capability what we're going to pass.
Mike: I mean, let's go back and talk about ABM because I think, you know, you obviously understand ABM incredibly well and have built a product that helps people do it better. What are people, other than having audiences that are too large you referred to earlier, but what are people doing wrong with their ABM campaigns today?
Ganesh: Yeah, I think a lot of B2B marketers think ABM is, hey, I identify a bunch of accounts, run ads to the decision makers, and then somehow they're going to fill forms and then come to demos, right? So I think that's a primary mindset that most marketers have, right? Unless you've done AVM well for a while, and then you really go, hey, that's not how it is. Most people think, hey, I run a campaign. I put in a bunch of $10,000 budget and I would get 20 booking demo books from decision makers right from the right. I think what ABM essentially is understanding the needs of an account, where are they even looking to buy your solution right now, and then take the right action based on where their needs are, right? So if an account is not even thinking of buying a solution, it's best to nurture them and educate them and be on top of their minds. so that when the right time arrives, they think about your brand versus think about an account which is visiting your website or comparing you on G2. They're actually considering purchasing a product or a solution similar to yours. The messaging and the ads should be completely different then. You should be talking about, hey, what pain points we can solve? How are we better than the competitors you are researching about, right? So that's how the messaging should be. Only when you engage your accounts in a way, depending on what their content need is, is what is an efficient account-based marketing campaign. And that's what most marketers miss out. They just think, hey, I run a bunch of ads and then I'm magically going to get decision makers into my demo or buy my product.
Mike: And that's really interesting. I mean, this is something LinkedIn talks about a lot with targets that are in market and targets that are not in market. And they have this 5% number they come up with. Only 5% of the people you're targeting are actually ready to buy at the moment. Presumably, one of the nice things about working with SaaS companies is that it's actually possible to get some intent signals. And you mentioned a couple of places where you might pull in intent. So you can understand whether an account is considering a purchase or not. Does that make ABM for SAS easier? Or do you think that's something that Recotap is going to apply across other markets in the future?
Ganesh: Yeah, I think the Recotap app is quite useful for markets where a lot of decision making is done digitally. And I think that's a lot of markets now. And I think if your audience is on LinkedIn, Recotap app is going to be quite useful. So we are right now focusing on SaaS companies because of the intern signals, what we have natively built in. We work with G2, we work with Trusted Years, we work with Bombora, right? And I think it's primarily SaaS and software. focus signals at this point in time, or tech companies, if I have to go broad. But I think as a product, I think it's primarily dependent on LinkedIn. So anybody who has audiences on LinkedIn can actually use like that.
Mike: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, one of the features, you know, as well as bringing intent is personalization. I think anyone who's run ABM campaigns, typically is quite surprised that relatively straightforward personalization can actually really improve performance. So can you talk a little bit about how you help marketers personalize the content in the campaigns, whether that's the ads or the landing pages, and what you've seen that works really well?
Ganesh: So, I think personalization is one of the key actions which you can take when you're running the LinkedIn AVM campaign. So personalization, if you have to do personalization well, so you need to really understand what your accounts are looking for, right? So I think the standard personalization is, hey, company name, or hey, person name, but I think that works to just grab attention, but then nothing more than that. So real personalization is understanding, hey, what your account is, look at all the signals which an account is exhibiting, understand what an account is trying to achieve right now, and can you customize your message for that account and for key personas inside that account. So, Rekodap helps automate 80 to 90% of this process. So, as I mentioned before, we integrated most signals which B2B marketing teams have at hand. It could be signals on the CRM systems. It could be signals on website. It could be signals on third-party systems like G2 or Vumbora and so on. Say, for example, if you are a SaaS company selling to a HR head, and if you know that this particular certain company is interested in procuring HR tech solution like, let's say, payroll management. And they have problems related to payroll management. And then if you can try and position yourself saying that, hey, we are the best payroll management tool, and we solve certain problems in payroll management, which is quite relevant for you based on the intent signals what the account is exhibiting. So that's deep personalization. So you need to take your messaging from not just, hey, company, or hey, person, to actual pain points and actual requirements of an account basis at a certain stage, right? So that's what is personalization. And how Recotap helps you do is understand the signals, segment the accounts, and also create ads with AI, which use those signals, and then place those ads directly on LinkedIn. So you're not actually spending tons of time understanding signals, creating creatives, right? You can automate all of it with Rekrut app.
Mike: And in terms of managing that, I mean, I think one of the challenges people have with ABM on LinkedIn is that the LinkedIn ad tool is fairly clunky. So presumably what's happening is Recotap handling all that management and creating separate campaigns that have customized ads. So you're doing that all automatically in the background, is that right? Absolutely, right?
Ganesh: So, imagine you have 100 accounts who are interested in the same payroll solution, but they have different pay points. So your ads, need to be 100 different creatives. What record app can do is create 100 different ad creatives for each of those 100 accounts and also push it to LinkedIn and run those campaigns for each of those 100 accounts automatically.
Mike: And then presumably you can also route people to customized landing pages? Absolutely.
Ganesh: If you have a personalized ad, if people are clicking on it, they're going to land on your website. And then you can personalize with the same intent signal, with the same information. You can provide a lot more context and a lot more information on why a particular brand should be considering your product. So you're pairing a personalized landing page with a personalized ad.
Mike: And I think one of the things, you know, people would really like to know is you've obviously seen some campaigns that have been really effective. Are there any kind of either great campaigns or ideas or tips you can give as to how marketers can personalize ads more effectively on LinkedIn?
Ganesh: Yeah, so I think there are a lot of use cases where personalized ads can be used. All of us know LinkedIn ads are quite expensive and personalization brings the cost per click down and also increases the click-through rate. So that's like the leading metric. If you personalize well, I think you're going to get your cost per clicks and click-through rates at least 50%. We have seen customers decrease it by 300% and also getting your cost per leads down effectively. So that's the leading metric, right? But what could also happen is I've seen a customer who effectively used personalized ads to do ad cover for sales when they were part of an RFP process. So there was a large IT company going behind a bank and the sales were requiring marketing to influence their RFP. So this particular customer ran personalized ads, engaging the entire decision-making team for over three months. And then this campaign actually led to a win of a $3.2 million deal. So essentially the spend was not more than $20,000. but the revenue was $3.2 million. That's the power of personalization. If it's done well, I think it can really short circuit long sales cycles and also win deals for you.
Mike: And I think you mentioned something there that I think we really do need to address. LinkedIn is great, and particularly for its ability to target not only just at the company level, but also in terms of roles, which is clearly why a lot of people look at LinkedIn as their go-to platform. As you mentioned, LinkedIn can be very expensive. So it seems to me like there's an opportunity for for Recotap to potentially expand in the future and maybe offer, for example, Google Display retargeting of people who visit landing pages and don't convert. Is that something you're looking at? Is that in the plans? It's absolutely in the plans.
Ganesh: So, the key difference between retargeting and Recotap is this. So retargeting is you're targeting one person who has just visited the website. They may or may not be the decision makers and may or may not be part of the influencing team. So with record app, you could target the entire buying group. It could be influencers, it could be users, and that's the power of, we call it pre-targeting. But essentially, once you get the right decision makers on your website, you could automatically start a retargeting campaign on Meta, Google, YouTube, whatever channel.
Mike: That's really interesting. You did mention something earlier, we had a quick talk about companies in market versus companies that aren't actually ready to buy. I'm really interested, how should B2B marketers balance their approach to companies that are showing intent, that are in market looking for a product, and then nurturing those potential future customers that maybe aren't quite ready to buy? Is there a way you can use RecoTap to actually balance your budget and allocate it more sensibly so you're not 100% focused on lead gen or 100% focused just on awareness?
Ganesh: Sure. I think it's more a question about what your company's goals are for this quarter. what your goals are in the long term. Record app and LinkedIn in general as a tool can be used to achieve both, right? It's a question of how much budgets you have and what is high priority right now. But I think good ABM campaigns are a mix of both. And then I definitely recommend using record app to build broad level awareness among your accounts, but also use Recotap to close leads and get leads and close deals faster. So I think there's no right mix on how much you need to spend on brand awareness and how much you need to spend on demand gen and stuff. But I think it's different for different companies. What we've seen customers successfully do is they figure this number in a quarter or two when they use Recotap. And because of the journey stage based orchestration, what record app has, you know, Hey, if I, if I start targeting X amount of accounts at the top of the funnel, how many actually go into the middle of the funnel and how many actually go into the customer stage, right. In a, in a quarter or two. And then you can use that number, which is actually relevant for your organization to make, uh, for the decisions for the next quarter and the next year and so on.
Mike: Yeah, makes absolute sense. One thing that interests me, you primarily work with SaaS companies, and there's been a lot of talk in B2B marketing about customers spending more time doing self-directed research, less time talking to salespeople. And I think SaaS is pretty much an extreme of that, where actually many people are buying SaaS almost entirely through digital processes rather than talking to salespeople. Do you see this trend continuing? And if so, presumably, that's going to drive more focus on ABM marketing, because frankly, the major prospects don't want to talk to salespeople. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Ganesh: I think it's a very, very reasonable assumption. And I think with AI, chat GPT of the world, I think doing research is becoming much and more easier and easier, right? But I do think for ABM SaaS companies, this is actually a good thing. Because when there's a lot of research online, it's easy to track intent compared to the previous ways of traditional sales. You have to have expensive salespeople take your customers on expensive dinners, golf events, and so on. But I think because a lot of research happens online, I think in my opinion, it's a good thing for SaaS companies. There are tools right now where you can get intent of these accounts. That's actually a good thing. It's actually lowering the cost per acquisition in my opinion. And I think it is a vote to continue.
Mike: I mean, that sounds very similar to what a lot of people I hear saying. I'm also interested what you think is going to happen in terms of changes to technology. I mean, ABM is actually, what is it, a couple of decades old? It's not really been around for that long, but it's changed massively. How do you see ABM or marketing in general changing in the next five years?
Ganesh: interesting time. I think what has happened because of the advent of AI is there's not too much difference between a good messaging and which is really well-crafted messaging and a not so well-crafted messaging, right? I think a lot of companies have cracked how to use AI well in their messaging and also implement automation. So what I see happening is There's going to be too much of noise. Customers are going to find it very difficult to figure out, hey, which is the best solution for me? I think there's a lot of overload of AI generated content out there. And then every ad is going to look similar. Every landing page is going to look similar. They're going to talk the same thing. So it's going to become very difficult for companies to actually make decision. And I feel people are going to go to human connections then to make the decisions. I think it's going to go into a full circle and I predict it's going to happen pretty soon.
Mike: Interesting. I think we're all seeing a lot of AI generated content and beginning to recognize it. I think that is going to be a challenge for marketers who've bought into AI heavily, is that customers are going to see it and value it less. I totally agree. Ganesh, I really appreciate your time. It's been fascinating. I feel like we've only scratched the surface of some of the capabilities of RecoTap. But I'm aware of your time. So there's two questions we always like to ask people on the podcast. And the first is, what's the best marketing advice you've ever been given?
Ganesh: The best advice which I ever got, which I reused at Recotap is think about differentiation right from the beginning and then think about positioning right from the beginning. And also, it takes a little bit of time and experimentation to arrive there, but I think you think about what your brand is, right? When somebody is searching for their problem on a weekend, they should think about your brand, right? And I think brand positioning and brand differentiation is very, very important.
Mike: I think that's great advice. I think certainly it's something we're all trying to do, maybe not always giving it as much focus as we should. The second question is about people entering the industry. I mean, obviously, industry is going through huge change at the moment, particularly due to the influence of generative AI. So what advice would you give a young person just about to start a marketing career?
Ganesh: Yeah, I think, again, I touched upon this a bit in one of the previous questions. I think it's an interesting time. A lot of grunt work in marketing, processing Excels, taking data from one place is all getting automated. I think what's going to still remain intact, at least in the near foreseeable decade is the human element of marketing. So I think an end person who's getting into marketing right now, I think should focus more on the human element, the psychology of marketing and not on say things like performance marketing, for example, which I think is going to get automated with AI pretty soon.
Mike: That's great advice. I love that. Ganesh, it's been great having you on the podcast. It's been a fascinating discussion. If people want to learn more about RicoTap or about account-based marketing, where's the best place for them to go?
Ganesh: I think we are very active on LinkedIn because we have a product which is on LinkedIn. I think the easiest place to reach me is on LinkedIn.
Mike: That's awesome. Ganesh, thank you so much for your insights and it's been a really fascinating discussion. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Ganesh: Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike.It was fun being part of this podcast and I think I really enjoyed this experience as well.
Empowering Marketers with AI – Sam Mallikarjunan – agent.ai
Discover how Sam Mallikarjunan, Growth Lead at agent.ai transitioned from being an AI skeptic to an advocate, and learn about the innovative platform that allows anyone to build and customize AI agents, regardless of their technical skills.
Mike and Sam explore what AI agents are, share real-world examples of how marketers can use them for tasks like research and content creation, and discuss how AI is reshaping the future of marketing roles.
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About agent.ai
Agent.ai is the #1 professional marketplace where users can build, discover, and deploy trustworthy AI agents that deliver real-world value.
Founded in 2024 by Dharmesh Shah, co-founder and CTO of HubSpot, and led by Sam Mallikarjunan, Agent.ai empowers professionals to revolutionize their workflow across sales, marketing, and customer service through intelligent automation.
Since its launch at HubSpot’s INBOUND 2024, the platform has experienced explosive growth, amassing over 1.5 million users and hosting more than 1,200 public agents by early 2025. The platform distinguishes itself with its intuitive low-code agent builder, access to cutting-edge AI models, and a vibrant developer ecosystem.
About Sam Mallikarjunan
Sam Mallikarjunan is a growth strategist, entrepreneur, and the Growth Lead at agent.ai. He is the former CEO and co-founder of OneScreen.ai, a marketplace for out-of-home advertising, and previously served as Chief Revenue Officer at Flock.com and Head of Growth at HubSpot Labs, where he drove significant customer acquisition and revenue growth.
Sam is a former professor at Harvard University, where he taught Advanced Digital Marketing and Innovation, and he currently shares his expertise as a LinkedIn Learning Instructor. He is also the co-author of the bestseller Inbound Commerce - How to Sell Better than Amazon and frequently offers insights on AI, marketing, and business strategy
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Sam Mallikarjanan from Agent.ai
00:01:41 - Overview of Agent.ai and Its Features
00:02:45 - Understanding AI Agents in Marketing
00:04:10 - Practical Applications of Agents for Marketers
00:10:34 - Target Audience: Individuals vs. Enterprises
00:12:57 - The Importance of AI Confidence in Marketing
00:17:27 - Future Changes in Marketing Roles Due to AI
00:19:59 - The Shift from Performance to Brand Marketing
00:22:44 - Best Marketing Advice Received by Sam
00:24:07 - Career Advice for Aspiring Marketers
00:27:15 - Conclusion and Closing Remarks
Quotes
"The more focused you try and make an AI, the more effective it's gonna be at whatever the task is that you're trying to have it do." Sam Mallikarjunan, Growth Lead at agent.ai
"The biggest challenge is getting people to become AI curious and AI confident." Sam Mallikarjunan, Growth Lead at agent.ai
"It was an interesting project because it's what helped turn me from an AI doomer into an AI boomer." Sam Mallikarjunan, Growth Lead at agent.ai
Follow Sam:
Sam Mallikarjunan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallikarjunan/
agent.ai’s website: https://agent.ai/
agent.ai’s on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/pulsar-platform/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
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Transcript: Interview with Sam Mallikarjunan at agent.ai
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sam Mallikarjunan
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Sam Mallikarjunan. Sam is from Agent.ai. Welcome to the podcast, Sam.
Sam: Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
Mike: So we'd like to start off, we'd like to give people a chance to introduce themselves, talk about their background. So what led you to found Agent AI? How did you get here?
Sam: Yeah, so Dharmesh Shah, who founded HubSpot, founded Agent AI. He came to me with the idea last year. I worked for him when I used to run HubSpot Labs way back in the day. And it was May 30th, he emails me and says, can we have 100,000 users by inbound, which is in September. We did. We had 156,000 users by inbound. And now it's, we've gotten kind of the old band back together. A lot of the early HubSpot executives, people that I worked with back when the company was 150 people, not, I don't know what they are now, probably like 8,000 people. But yeah, I know it was an interesting project because it's what helped turn me from an AI doomer into an AI boomer. Like I didn't want to see a world in which we went from having millions of websites to like dozens of orchestration agents and all dominated by major players. So I really like the ecosystem play. So yeah, I exited my last startup back in 2023. And it was too interesting, I think not to work on.
Mike: That sounds really exciting. I mean, do you want to explain a little bit more about what agent AI does? I'm sure some people listening will be familiar, but maybe some people won't have heard of a platform.
Sam: Yeah, we are less than a year old. So the idea is we have an agent builder. So anyone, regardless of technical skill or budget or anything else like that, can come use the free builder. It always has access to all the latest models. We don't charge for it because we assume performance is going to keep going up and costs are going to keep coming down. So it's silly to try and charge for AI usage. About 25,000 agents have been built on the site, which is quite a lot. And a lot of them are just like very niche applications. So it's LinkedIn prospecting for executive recruiters in Scotland, not just LinkedIn prospecting. So make it more precise. And the rest of the 1.5 million users are using agents that people build. So we wanted to make it so that anybody could build an agent or customize an agent. And then the marketplace side of it is anybody can discover and use an agent. So that's the majority of the users are finding agents that people have already built and then using those in their daily lives.
Mike: And that's interesting, but I mean, we've got a lot of marketers listening. Can you just unpack exactly what you mean by what an agent is in terms of the AI world?
Sam: Yeah, so an agent, first of all, this is why we should never let engineers name anything. The CEO at OpenAI had this joke. He's like, yeah, we're running out of weird number letter combinations to keep naming GPT dolls. An agent has quite literally agency, not in the philosophical sense, the literal sense. You allow it to take actions on your behalf. So it's not just the AI we've worked with for 20 years has been about predicting things. So, you know, auto completing texts or giving advice. An agent actually goes and does stuff on an ongoing basis for you. So it attends meetings for me and generates a summary based on things that it thinks I'll find interesting. It does, every morning I get an audio overview because it looks at my calendar. Everybody that I'm meeting looks at their company, their LinkedIn posts, generates, when I go for my morning walk, an overview for me. So it's, we've started to trust computers enough now that we let them take some actions on our behalf, generally as long as we're still in the loop. It's called human in the loop. But that's the difference between the normal AI, like autocomplete. Everybody's familiar with that. It's just instead of autocompleting sentences or predicting the next word, now we're having it autocomplete entire emails, entire articles, or entire essays and books.
Mike: So, I mean, do you have some examples of, you know, some of the agents on the agent AI site that maybe would be useful for marketers, you know, the kind of applications where you can do something that's just a little bit better than opening up chat GPT and driving it yourself?
Sam: Yeah, I mean, again, I love ChatGPT. They do great stuff, but they're solving for a generalized use case, which is very hard. In general, the more focused you try and make an AI, the more effective it's gonna be at whatever the task is that you're trying to have it do. The main thing, I mean, markers use it to draft copy. That's totally fine. They use it for prospect research, which I really like. So understanding what do the people in your audience want to read? What are the questions that they have? I think it's my favorite thing about AI is you can ask it to adopt a specific perspective. It's really hard, unless you're me, because I've had an easy career. As I said earlier, I was at HubSpot. We were literally marketers marketing to marketers about marketing. Most people aren't the exact customer that they're marketing to. So having it ideate with them, having it say, you know, how is this simulated persona, how is it going to perceive this email, this article that I'm writing, or even this landing page? So now that it can actually see things, you can have it, you know, tell you how you should change the page to make it less interesting to you, potentially, but more interesting to the people who matter, which is the people that you're actually marketing to. So that I think is the most practical way. You can use it to automate all the stuff that you already hate, right? You can post LinkedIn spam at scale. That's fine. It's how most people are using it. You could have a draft and write blog articles for you. It'll get you probably 85% of the way. But that's still a big time saver. It allows you to provide different languages.
So Most people don't realize the T, the Transformer, the T in GPT was originally built for language translation. And so like having that context and that ability to provide support, provide collateral, everything else that you're doing in multiple languages, very important for a lot of marketers. So you can automate things you do. You can expand your skill set too, right? Like I no longer have to go bug the engineering team every time I want to write My local pub, I built a drunken spelling bee game for them. And that's maybe not the most powerful application of AI, but it was particularly interesting that I didn't… I haven't written code in 20 years, at least none that anyone used, but I was able to do that without bothering them. You know, like back in the day at Upspot, we had a woman, I think her name was Diana. She like took a week off, taught herself jQuery and like manually coded, she was on the marketing team, manually coded a slide in CTA, now it's a feature that they have. And like kind of the goal is can everybody be a Diana, right? Can everybody have access to code? Sales reps can generate presentations so that you don't have to, you know, be bothered by that. Can you do advanced data analytics, you know, without having to loop in the data science team? So it's like we're still T-shaped markers, we've got our deep specialization, but the breadth of the T, the number of things we can be mediocre at has dramatically increased. So like automate the things you want, you can have access to new skills, and then access to different perspectives and ways to communicate with people, those are my favorite ways to use it.
Mike: And so what an agent is doing is basically, and this is probably not the right technical word, but tweaking an AI so it's more focused on achieving a certain task. Is that what you're trying to do? Or what exactly is agent AI trying to provide?
Sam: Yeah, so an agent generally needs access to tools as well. So even just using, you know, my example of my daily briefing that I get, it has to access my Google Calendar, right? Then it has to access LinkedIn because it firstly enriches the contacts using a different system. Then it accesses LinkedIn. Then it generates the text, which GVT 4.5 is pretty good at. Then it uses a different AI to generate the audio for me. And then it like sends it to me. So, the ability to have multiple steps, multiple tools, have specific instructions, so you can have it adopt a specific perspective. It doesn't get lost in the memory chain. But then also, different AIs are good at different things. You may want to use Anthropic, so Claude, for something. You may want to use Perplexity for searching, which Perplexity has completely replaced Google in my life. I just don't use Google anymore, except when I'm looking up the HubSpot stock price. And, you know, it's not always like just use GPT, that's not always kind of the, or Chachapititas, not always the best thing to do. So it's the ability, if you can use workflow tools, right? Like just be able to think logically about what you want to have it do. Like I have it, and it's not always work related, right? I have one that's a chess coach. So every week I have my chess lesson and I got really annoyed at this like 20 something year old genius, like calling me stupid every week. So I built an AI agent that looks at my games, looks at the lessons I was supposed to watch that week, tells me what I clearly didn't learn, then it generates a quiz. So it pretends to be a teacher, generates a quiz, and then improves my answers. It tells me how I can improve my answers so that I show up to that meeting slightly more educated than I would without the help of the AI. So it's the ability to use different AI models and access different tools and then be able to force things very logically. Forcing AI to think step-by-step is not very easy when you're just using chat. You can tell it to think step-by-step, but it's going to forget and get weird. As opposed to if you build your own agent, you can force it to do this, then this, then this, then this.
Mike: But I think Asian AI takes it a step further. You don't actually have to build your own agent. You can actually use somebody else's agent. So do you want to talk about how you're giving people access to all these different potential helpful agents?
Sam: Yeah, like I said, 25,000 agents since we unlocked the builder in January. They're generally fairly different flavors of the same thing. So you can take an agent, somebody else. When you build an agent, you can either keep it private, you can make it public, You can use it for lead generation or in the future, you'll be able to monetize it. You'll be able to just like an Apple app store kind of situation. If you make it public, which is about I think 1,500 or so agents on the site are public. So most people keep them private. If you make it public, then people can clone them. So you can let people take the agent that you've built, which does something interesting. Maybe it's a meme generator. They can clone it and say, I want memes specifically for B2B enterprise marketers. Here's examples of really good memes. Here's examples of really bad memes. And now you have a meme generator for B2B enterprise marketing. That's not something you can do with just a regular agent. But yeah, that's like, right now it's all citizen developers. Nobody's making money off of building agents on agent.ai yet. They will eventually. Right now it's just people building stuff that they find cool. And then other people taking that stuff and building on top of it.
Mike: And what's the cost? I mean, is this sort of an enterprise type thing? You said people were citizens developers. So is it just individuals doing this?
Sam: For the most part, it's individuals that are building agents. Not a lot of enterprises are using it, because if you need an enterprise solution, there are other AI studios out there that have great enterprise-grade solutions with SOC 2 security and everything else like that. Our focus is the hundreds of millions of global professionals who aren't in the enterprise, or whose enterprises just haven't adopted it. I'm speaking at a big banking conference later this year, and people want to use AI, but their companies are just so slow. And if your company's not going to pay for it, but you still need it because you are an enterprise marketer or whatever, then you can come use HDI. So it is mostly individuals who are using it. I think like most disruptive technologies, it's going to start from the individual and then move on up more than it's going to be a thing that you can't wait for your company to evaluate a solution, buy it, implement it, train everybody on it. By the time that happens, six new AI revolutions will have happened. So it is a lot of individuals. But I think that if you're at a big enterprise, I think you count as one of those.
Mike: So it's fascinating. I mean, obviously, you know, you've got plans to grow and presumably by monetizing the agents that gives you a chance to drive revenue. So what's your strategy for growing the business growing the number of users? What's your marketing strategy overall?
Sam: Yeah, so we've been remarkably effective with paid acquisition. Turns out we're pretty good at that. We also, obviously, we're not part of HubSpot, but we are, I call it, strategically adjacent to HubSpot. We share a founder, obviously. We have a lot of reach into marketing with them and kind of their channel program. We're about to announce, actually, by the time this airs, probably we will have announced, a $1 million grant fund to subsidize people who want to build agents but can't afford to quit their jobs and focus on it. And then the thing I'm really excited about, another thing that we're announcing this month is, it's a terrible name, we're calling it essentially the Corporate Builder Program. So if you're a company, and you want to offer agentic functionality in your own platform, but you don't have AI engineers, or maybe it's just like really expensive, maybe you're a startup, you'll be able to build an agent on Agents.ai and have your users experience that agent in your own platform.
So right now we've got a million users. The way to get to 10 million users by inbound of this year, which is our goal, is mostly going to be around, can we empower people who already have big audiences, already have platforms that they're monetizing, etc., to enable those people to provide agent functionality to their users? That I think is, we're not going to buy our way into 10 million users. You know, our normal marketing channels might get us to three million users by September of this year. I think the rest of the growth for our target is going to come from letting other people build, not just on our platform, because we don't care at the end of the day if the user knows it's agent AI or anything else like that. Right. Like we just care that people are using AI agents. I think that's going to be the real issue. It's also the thing I feel good about because I know one feels good helping Microsoft make more money. Right. But like you feel good helping startups like my local pub. They built an agent. where they upload the stuff they want to get rid of, food and booze and stuff like that, and have it generate recipes and clever names. So these people who can barely update their website are doing inventory turnover optimization that would make Amazon proud. Those are the types of people that we want to help. So that's the strategy. There's definitely organic acquisition that we're doing. The biggest issue Much like the early days of HubSpot, I had to convince people that search engines mattered before I could sell you SEO software for quite a long time. And blogging was something your nephew did on LiveJournal, not something you thought serious businesses did. So our biggest challenge actually is, and the reason I do all these podcasts is getting people to become AI curious and AI confident and go try it out. But yeah, the biggest growth I think is going to come from that core program where we let other people build AI agents and we keep footing the bill, like it's fine. We don't mind footing the bill. We just want people to build cool things and we want to not live in a world where only large enterprises have access to build AI, which by definition means only people with large budgets have access to the AI that those people are building.
Mike: There's so many things I could ask you from that. I mean, obviously, you're, you're in a great position because you can foot the bill. Your your pounder Dharmesh has obviously got another company did okay HubSpot, I think is probably made him a few dollars. You mentioned a term that I thought was was really interesting. You talked about people being AI confident. And I think it's interesting, you know, if you talk to a lot of marketers today, they'll probably say, Yeah, I feel confident, you know, sitting down engineering a prompt for AI, that's okay, you know, this, this whole prompt engineer thing that's kind of gone away. Now, we can we can do that ourselves. If you said to them, how do you feel about building your own AI agent, I think, you know, a lot of marketers would be like, well, that's, you know, There's programmers go do that. So how difficult is it really to create, you know, an agent that maybe looks up some data from LinkedIn to enrich your CRM or something? Is it hard or is it really straightforward?
Sam: It's casual effort. If you can build a workflow in like an automation tool where you're just listing out like the steps that you want it to do, you can build an AI agent. My local pub They can't update the QR codes on their website without having me help them. That's the level of non-technical. Nobody opens an Irish pub in Cocoa Beach, Florida because they want to be a software developer. So if they can do it, anybody listening can do it. But my big thing is this change is happening much faster than any of us are used to. Industrial Revolution, we had a century to get used to it. Didn't happen everywhere at once. Even digital transformation, I mean, you had like 20 years to figure it out before it became a huge competitive disadvantage to not have CRM and analytics and stuff like that. This is probably more like five years. I mean, Shared GPT is only, what, three years old? right? Less than three years old. The paper that founded all of this, I think was published in like 2017. We went from underlying theory to, oh my God, how do we keep up in less than 10 years? The main thing I want to explain to marketers, I literally study this stuff for a living and I barely understand it and I can barely keep up. So I know it's an instinct for all of us to pretend like we know what's going on. And if we don't know what's going on, to find it very intimidating. But if you're curious and can overcome that, This is an, it's just an amazing time to create advantage for yourself because nobody is as far ahead of you as you think they are. All of the thought leaders on LinkedIn and everything else like that are, I don't know, a couple of weeks of study ahead of somebody listening to this podcast who's never even logged into chat GPT.
Mike: That's amazingly positive on one side and unbelievably scary on another because you really bring home the speed of change. I mean, that leads to this obvious question. How do you think the role of marketers is going to change over the next, you know, and let's keep it quite short, you know, one to three years because of AI?
Sam: One, I think we will be able to and therefore expected to do more in the organization. So we're going to be expected to be able to do data analytics, light coding, stuff that we haven't been expected to do in the past. The flip side of that is we will be able to expect others to do more on their own, like the product team being able to do product marketing and research, the sales team. Do not bother me with another question about what was our sales pipeline at the beginning of the quarter or something like that. Ask the freaking AI and let it figure that out for you. Have it build presentations and stuff for you. So like, we'll take on more responsibilities, we're going to lose some of those responsibilities. I think brand marketing is going to become much more important. So for the last like 20 years, it was kind of the quantitative marketers who were the popular ones. You know, performance marketers, PPC, conversion rate optimization, all that kind of stuff. The storytelling One, in a world in which everything's optimized to death, right? Like marketing is a game of millimeters before generative AI hit the stage. And now it's going to be even worse. Everybody's going to be good at that part. The brand's storytelling will set people apart. And also, optimizing for language models, because we are not far, and already people are using language models to help them shop, right? I asked Perplexity the other day, should I buy a new router? And it actually told me no. which I'm sure is not ideal for the people at the Netgear Corporation. But it's not like search engine optimization where it's keywords and links and stuff like that. It is more about what does the kind of zeitgeist of the internet writ large think about you and your brand and your product and your competitors. And that is more of a PR brand storytelling thing. You've got to get the internet to think something about you. more than just getting the right links and adding metadata and all the kind of, or A-B testing, copy and stuff like that. All the things that quantitative marketers have done. So I think if you are a pure performance marketer, start picking up some books about brand marketing. And if you are a brand marketer who has seen your budget cut for the last 15 years as PPC marketers got all the love, you're about to reenter your heyday.
Mike: I think that's fascinating. It's been an incredible cycle, actually. And, you know, we see people like Ram Fishkin talking about zero-click marketing and the importance of brand as well. I think what's happened with the internet is it came in, it almost killed brand marketing and made performance marketing like some kind of marketing god. And then 15 years later, as you say, it's actually reversing the situation. It's incredible how much priorities are changing in terms of marketing and how quickly it's happening.
Sam: Yeah, I mean, when everybody has access to the same tools, like when you do what everyone else does, you get what everyone else gets. Right. And so it was an advantage for us. Like 15 years ago, if you just had a blog, you were ahead of the schedule. Right. I was back then I was the number number nine or something CMO on Twitter. Right. Like number 10 was the guy from Best Buy. And it's not because I was particularly interesting at the time. I think I was CMO of a cigar company, but there were only like 20 CMOs on Twitter. So it pays to be an early adopter to things. And this is the most leverage I've seen, where if you can be an early adopter to all the stuff that's going on right now, you can have a huge advantage. But everybody else is going to have those too. So content creation on the internet is already a slop. I mentor some startups that are publishing 2,000 blog articles a month. Right. This is going to crush things like SEO. The AI is going to write better ad copy. It's going to run better experiments, especially as we let it take more and more actions. We trust it more and more. The way people interact with the internet is going to change. Everybody now has the ability to do advanced data analysis. Great. Makes it not a competitive advantage. So you have to have an interesting perspective. It's the only way to win in the future is you actually shock, actually have to have something interesting to say in order to be effective at marketing. You can't just be really good at math, which is a bummer for me, by the way, because I built my entire career off of performance marketing.
Mike: And I was going to say, I started my career as an engineer. So that's not necessarily a positive view for me in terms of marketing, because clearly math is one of my marketing strengths. I mean, Sam, it's been fascinating. You know, I really appreciate your time. We'd like to ask just a couple of questions at the end. I mean, I feel there's so many things we could ask. There's a couple of standard questions you'd like to ask. And the first one is, what's the best piece of marketing advice someone has ever given you?
Sam: The best piece of marketing advice someone has ever given me was actually one of the early HubSpot customers, where he reminded me that what's obvious and potentially boring to me is novel, mind-blowing, and very interesting to the customers. So by definition, you know more about your industry, your product, your service, etc. than any of your customers. Otherwise, why would they be coming to you? And I think that is something that's hard to remind myself of right I write articles or even when I'm designing speeches and lectures for teaching. It's hard to avoid trying to make it interesting to me, and remembering that, like, marketing is a service that we provide to customers, our job is to educate and entertain and help them make a decision. So that, I think, is Tom Schwab, if you're ever listening to this, was the name of the person who first told me that. And that perspective has stayed with me.
Mike: That's awesome. The other question we'd like to know is, if you're talking to someone who's just about to enter marketing as a career, what career advice would you give them?
Sam: That's tough. My 16-year-old nephew actually just asked me that question. He's coming from a computer programming kind of angle. So what do I major in in college? I think broad experiences matter more than specialization. So in the world of weird things coming full circle, liberal arts degrees and having a broad exposure, I think is going to be a lot more important. Start using the AI tools if you aren't already, if you're just starting your career. The good thing is the younger generation finds AI tools very intuitive. It's not like, you know, people who have to kind of like figure out, oh, okay, this isn't a person. They also get better results from the language models because they don't, they're not like over engineering their prompts, right? They just interact with it in a natural way. But if you have a bent towards quantitative stuff, take some brand classes. Take a creative writing class. If you are a very creative person, take some more technical classes. Because I think our T-shape is getting wider. And again, the expectations are going to be important. But also just being able to understand different perspectives, different disciplines and trades, that's going to be really important. So don't just take the classes that you're super interested in that you think are very relevant to your marketing career. Take other ones, take sales courses, take a finance course. Like we all need to be much have much broader tees since we have the skills to do things. Now we need like the wisdom and context to be able to do those things.
Mike: I love it. It's fantastic. I mean, just to follow up on that, I think one of the things that some industries have seen, and I think software engineering is probably the best example, is that actually, the opportunities for younger people to enter have shrunk quite dramatically as some of the entry level tasks get taken over by AI. Do you think that's going to be a trend in marketing as well, that it's going to be harder to get into the industry because AI is going to do a lot of entry level work? Or do you see a more positive future?
Sam: Yeah, that used to be one of my main concerns, right? If you automate all the entry level sales reps, where do the senior sales reps of tomorrow come from? Because AI is just not going to be able to do things that require wisdom, judgment, context, experience. I'm more bullish now because there are interesting companies out there that are doing things like, it's hard to replace a sales rep, a full sales rep, right? It's quite easy to replace a prospect. So having a junior person is actually better for them because historically we would have to waste leads on junior sales reps that might have closed if we gave them senior sales reps. Now we can just create synthetic prospects and you can practice all day long. You can learn all of these things. And it's the same with marketers, right? One, you have unlimited information. You have an incredibly patient teacher. I sometimes just have chat GPT sit there and teach me quantum mechanics or some weird thing that I want to know more about. But you also have the ability to practice things. If you're applying for a job, you can practice interviewing. We all suck at interviewing. right? Unless you're a sales rep or somebody who's inherently good at managing a conversation. It's incredibly important to your life and it's something you probably only do like less than 100 times, right? In your life. And if you get it wrong, you're dramatically changed the trajectory of your life. So using AI to help younger people have access to wisdom and mentorship. They're creating these AI clones of people now, right? Like you can have an AI clone of Dharmesh and ask him for advice. He's always willing to give advice and talk to people, but there's limits on his time. He can't give advice to a million people. So I think taking advantage of AI as a learning tool and an opportunity to simulate the things that you're going to have to do and learn from that, I think it's actually going to make younger professionals more successful versus getting crowded out of the marketplace.
Mike: Thanks, Sam. I mean, that's just a great positive view to end on. I think that's really exciting. I mean, hopefully people listening to this will actually be really motivated to do more around AI, and they'll want to try Agent AI. So if people have questions about Agent AI or just want to get started, where's the best place to go?
Sam: So I actually suggest going to community.agent.ai. It's also linked in the footer of the main site itself. We don't pretend that we know all the answers. And much like the early days of the internet, there were forums where like developers and marketers were talking to each other. We have the same thing going on in the community. So join the community, ask questions, share perspectives that you have, we're all going to learn this together. It's not going to be, you go to the agent AI blog and you learn everything you need to know. And now you're a AI master. I think the really interesting stuff is going to be the stuff that we don't think of. So yeah, go check out community.agent.ai. Even if you just watch what other people are talking about, you're going to learn a lot.
Mike: That's amazing. And it shows that even if you're leading one of the most exciting companies in one of the most exciting sectors, you can still be humble and say the community knows more. I love that. Sam, that's been brilliant. And nothing has humbled me more than the AI revolution of the last several years. Sam, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for your insights. And thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Challenging Attribution, Repurposing Content, and Elevating Email
This episode dives into the challenges of attribution in marketing, the benefits of content repurposing, and what’s new in Salesforce’s spring AI updates. Mike and Hannah also cover Marketo’s improved email designer and share a quick tip on boosting engagement with more creative CTAs.
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- The Marketing Automation Moment on napierb2b.com
About Napier
Napier is a PR-lead, full service marketing agency that specialises in the B2B technology sector. We work closely with our clients to build campaigns, focusing on achieving results that have a significant positive impact on their businesses and which, above all, ensure maximum return on their investment.
About Mike Maynard
Mike is the Managing Director/CEO of Napier, a PR and marketing agency for B2B technology companies. A self-confessed geek who loves talking about technology, he believes that combining the measurement, accountability and innovation that he learnt as an engineer with a passion for communicating ensures Napier delivers great campaigns and tangible return on investment.
About Hannah Wehrly
Hannah is the Head of Business Development and Marketing at Napier and leads on pitching, proposal writing, lead nurturing, email marketing, social media and content creation. Hannah joined the Napier team back in 2017 as a Marketing Specialist after completing her degree in Marketing and Communications, and her role focuses on developing new relationships with potential clients.
Time Stamps
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:42 - Attribution vs. Incrementality
00:02:40 - Repurposing Content
00:05:02 - Salesforce's AI Agents
00:07:45 - Marketo's Email Designer Updates
00:10:41 – The Insightful Tip of the Week and Call to Actions in Marketing
00:12:36 - Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Follow Mike and Hannah:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Hannah Wehrly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-wehrly-b0706a107/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
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Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast – Marketing B2B Technology: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/marketing-b2b-technology/id1485417724
Transcript: Challenging Attribution, Repurposing Content, and Elevating Email
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Hannah Wehrly
Hannah: Welcome to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Kelly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard. This is Napier's podcast to tell you about the latest news from the world of marketing automation.
Hannah: Welcome to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Whirly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard.
Hannah: Today, Mike rants about the problems of attribution.
Mike: We discuss making marketing content reuse a little bit simpler.
Hannah: The launch of Salesforce's AI agents.
Mike: We'll talk about Marketo's new email editor.
Hannah: And whether call to actions really make a difference. Hi Mike, welcome back to another episode of Market Automation Moment. How are you doing?
Mike: Hi Hannah, it's great to be back and good to talk to you again.
Hannah: Definitely. Now, I've got a few things I want us to cover today, but I've been doing a little bit of a stalk of your LinkedIn, and I've seen that you've been actively talking about attribution versus incremental increase. I'm really interested. Do you just want to take two minutes to explain what is that? And you know, what is it that you're actually talking about?
Mike: Well you've obviously noticed one of my hot buttons. I think you know one of the issues we've got is that actually attribution is one of the biggest cons that's ever been sold to marketers. Yes it can be useful if you design a campaign to be measured by attribution but there's so many ways that you can increase your campaign ROI using attribution. The classic example I said was if you simply advertise keywords around your online shop. So if you've got an online shop with a brand and you've just put Google ads there, you'll suddenly find great ROI. And the reason is, is people were going to go to your online shop, they would have clicked that organic result you had that's top of the list. But because you put an ad in front, they click on the ad and suddenly it looks like the ad has changed everything. The ad gets attributed value doesn't mean that it's increased any sales and i think what's going to happen is more and more people are actually going to run experiments where they're going to measure whether their campaigns are actually increasing sales or not and to me that's a great thing perhaps something for another marketing automation moment because one of my big frustrations is is that marketing automation platforms don't actually offer a good way to measure incrementality. They're all about A-B testing between two different things rather than testing whether sending an email or not really makes a difference.
Hannah: Definitely, Mike. I'd be interested in talking about it in a bit more detail. And it'd be interesting to see how these campaign measurements do change and whether marketers can then actually look at return of investment in a realistic way that matters and impacts them.
Mike: I hope it works. I mean, to be honest, incrementality is super hard to measure in B2B. So there's lots of problems. I'm very good at kind of ignoring the problems, just moaning about, you know, attribution. But I think, you know, it'll be an interesting thing to see.
Hannah: Interesting, Mike. Let's move on and kickstart the podcast episode. I really wanted to kickstart and talk about a webinar I recently saw from Acton. Now it was about repurposing content and don't get me wrong it wasn't anything that was out of this world but for me it was quite a nice surprise because we've talked about a lot of content the last few episodes and they've really been going hardcore on choose us, pick us, we're the market automation platform of your dreams. And so it was really nice for them to actually provide some content that I would view really valuable to marketers and to their users. And especially around this kind of concept of, yes, you've got your content, it's running, you've got your automations running great, but don't let your content get stale. I don't know, what did you think?
Mike: I actually thought it was a really good webinar. And the reason I liked it was they weren't actually trying to do too much. I think one of the things that happens is people look at content and they believe repurposing needs a complete rewrite or recreation of different format. And actually sometimes that's just not the case. A bit of a refresh can actually make the content look and feel very different, but doesn't require a lot of work.
Hannah: Absolutely. And I mean, it's one of the things that we, you know, preach a lot at Napier. We're always saying to our clients, content is the most expensive thing. It's really time consuming. And actually you don't need to be creating everything from scratch. Things can be repurposed. They can be refreshed. And I think it's nice to look at that from a marketing standpoint as well.
Mike: Yeah, and I think as marketeers as well, we can also be super guilty of imagining that our whole audience has seen some content, read it, understood it and remembered it. And there's this great story about Ford, where apparently Henry Ford walked into the advertising department many years ago. and said, when are we gonna stop running this ad? I've seen it so many times, I'm really bored of it. And the poor ad manager at the time had to say, actually, Mr. Ford, we haven't run it yet, it's just been seen internally. And I think we get that same impact when we are marketers. We've worked on content, we've seen it so many times, we've been through the third revision, and I've had issues with the 20th revision. Hopefully nobody's doing that, but if you've seen it so many times, you imagine that everybody in your audience has seen it, And the answer is probably the vast majority of your audience haven't seen that content. So doing something to refresh it, you know, maybe changing the cover, you know, something really simple can actually get a much wider audience to see your content. So I think it's a great idea. It's a really good webinar.
Hannah: I love that story, Mike. Let's move on because we have actually had some updates from the other mass automation platforms in the landscape. And one I came across was Salesforce. Now they've just released their spring 25 updates. And I was interested. I was like, oh, is there going to be some really cool stuff? Let's have a look. And actually, it's all about AI agents. So they've got this one web page that just lists different AI agents for all different areas. Now, I'm not disappointed, but, you know, they've spoken about Einstein a lot. That's really their brand. And I get that it's new, but to me, it doesn't seem really exciting, really fresh. But I might be being a little bit cynical. I always hold my hands up if I am. What did you think about it?
Mike: Are you sure you're not disappointed just because it had the astronaut cartoons rather than the Einstein cartoons?
Hannah: It always affects my view.
Mike: Yeah, I think actually, in all seriousness, it's interesting how Salesforce are managing their branding of AI because it is outwardly a little confusing, a little inconsistent. You know, what they're trying to do, I think, is trying to give the impression that it's much bigger. And so they're using multiple characters. But you're absolutely right. The Einstein brand is very clear. And then the astronaut appears. I don't quite know what they're doing and whether it's actually going to make people understand or not. You know, it may be diluting, I think, the strength of some of their branding. Do you agree?
Hannah: I do agree. And, you know, often we like to argue on these podcasts, but I can't do it at this point, Mike. We've spoken about AI several times in the podcast and we've spoken about everything that they can do. But to me, it's almost come across, whether this is true and whether it's just how they've marked it, but it's almost a bit like a crux. So it's their crutch of, oh, well, look at us, we're laying this out, we're doing this. And in my head, I'm like, but weren't you doing that already?
Mike: It's interesting. I think there's a lot of hype around AI. And, you know, really what Salesforce is saying is that they've got agentic AI. So they've got agents that will actually do things using AI. And that can be really interesting, but it can also be really challenging. And I think one of the things that's really important is not so much the technology that they've got, which without doubt is pretty cool, but it's whether people can actually use the technology to implement customer service or marketing activities that are consistently better or at least as good as using humans. I think the whole question about whether AI is going to take jobs of humans is, you know, something different. But clearly from the marketing of AgentForce, which is all about digital labour, I think Salesforce is definitely pushing the fact that you'll need fewer people if you use our AI.
Hannah: I think that's a great point, Mike. And I think I'd be really interested to see some use cases, because at the moment, you know, it's all theoretical. We're not quite sure how it's going to impact people. So I think it's definitely something to watch.
Mike: Yeah, be interesting to see. I think you're absolutely right. The use cases are really what's going to define what happens.
Hannah: Well, let's move on because I want to talk about a platform we actually haven't spoken about for a while, and that's Marketo. Now, Marketo is often quite quiet on the marketing front, but I did come across quite a good blog that talks about some changes they're making to their email designer. Now, you've got a bit more experience with Marketo than I do, Mike. Do you think this is actually going to make an impact to users?
Mike: Do you know, I think it's interesting. So one of the things they seem to be trying to do with their new email designer is ensure that emails consistently look the same across all platforms. Anyone who's run big email campaigns knows that there's always platforms where your beautifully designed HTML looks a bit squiffy and off. And so I think that that's quite exciting. You've obviously had the same problem with, you know, marketing for Napier. The question is whether they'll be able to do it and whether they'll be able to keep up with changes in different email platforms.
Hannah: I think that's a great point and it's the risk that they go from being clunky, you know, email designers are often a bit clunky, they fix it, updates get made, the landscape changes and they're just back to being clunky straight away again.
Mike: Yeah, I mean I think the other thing that also is interesting is that clearly email's still a thing. I think for anyone who's actually active in marketing, that's the least surprising news in the world. There is a perception that email's going away. It certainly isn't. And I think if anything, really good email is here to stay. If you can get into the inbox and not into that kind of, whether you call it other or clutter or junk or whatever, if you can get into the main inbox, email is awesome.
Hannah: Oh, that's such a good point, Mike. I think I've heard nearly every week since I started my career, is email dead? I think email's dead. This is going to be the year that email is dead. You know, for Napier, for us, it's one of our most effective channels. And we spend a lot of time, and as you said, it's finding that balance of getting actually into that inbox, making sure that your system settings are set up right in the back end, making sure that you're testing, A, B testing subject lines, that it's not too long, it's not too short, and finding that balance, spending that time is so important.
Mike: You're so right, Hannah. I mean, I think people have been talking about the death of email forever. And if you do it right, and clearly you've done it right because you've talked about all the things to do, then it's really powerful. The other thing I think to say is that increasingly brands are realizing that to get into that primary inbox, one of the ways to do it is not to use over-designed HTML emails and just use plain text. That is a bit of an issue because obviously the Marketo designer is designed to make those beautiful emails that look wonderful. So I wonder what you think about that. I mean, do you think more and more people should be going to plain text?
Hannah: I think so. I've always been a massive fan of plain text. I think you can spend a lot of time. I don't want to say wasted, but I don't think it's the best use of time in making this beautiful header, making it look so lovely, having the layout. But really what it comes down to is if you do all that, but actually your writing isn't very good, the point, the value, it doesn't matter what it looks like, people are still going to click delete.
Mike: Absolutely. I totally agree. That's a great place to leave it and move on from email. What's the next thing on the list, Hannah?
Hannah: Well Mike, actually it's our insightful tip of the week and it links in quite well because I wanted to have a chat about call to actions and whether call to actions really make a difference. And now I'm talking about call to actions obviously in our emails but also on things like our website. We're a classic, we use our Discover, Learn More, Find Out. I do think there is quite a difference in the way landing pages can perform, for example, based on what you use. What do you think about it?
Mike: I absolutely agree. I mean, call to actions are super important. Anyone who's A-B tested it obviously will find people aren't clicking through to what you want them to do unless you ask them to actually do it. A strong, clear call to action is clearly important. And I think also it's really important to get the wording right. I mean, one of the greatest crimes against call to action is probably committed by LinkedIn. Sorry, LinkedIn, love you really. But just having a limited list of call to actions that you click from a dropdown, that's not great. I think what the HubSpot article made the point about, and really, you know, what as marketers we should look at, is honestly, learn more is not the only call to action.
Hannah: I think that's a great point, Mike. And I think sometimes being a bit creative with it. Yes, we're limited, but let your creativity come through. Think about what it is that you want to communicate and don't just fall into those same old tick boxes.
Mike: Yeah. I mean, you know, some of the calls to action in the HubSpot article, I mean, they gave a whole list of things, but some of them were actually quite cool. You know, I don't think I've ever used an upgrade call to action, but upgrade's a great active verb to use in a call to action. Claim is another one if you're offering content behind a registration wall. I think claim is a great call to action. So it did bring home to me that actually we all understand calls to action are good but maybe we sometimes sit a little bit in our comfort zone of CTAs and perhaps what we should be doing is being prepared to be a bit broader and certainly get them on those A-B tests and see whether they work or not. Find out.
Hannah: Well, I think that's a brilliant way to end the podcast, Mike. I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for another interesting conversation. I know we've covered a real variety of topics today.
Mike: No, thank you, Hannah. Great topics, as always. Thank you so much for digging them out. I look forward to talking to you again.
Hannah: Thanks for listening to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast.
The Power of Audience Narratives – Francesco D’Orazio – Pulsar
Francesco D’Orazio, founder of audience intelligence platform Pulsar, joins the latest episode of Marketing B2B Tech to share his journey from studying the internet's impact on society to founding Pulsar, a company that helps brands understand how people engage online.
He dives into the challenges of navigating the fragmented media landscape and how AI has become a crucial tool for analysing diverse data sources. Francesco also emphasises the importance of understanding narratives and public perception to uncover deeper insights about audience beliefs and behaviours.
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Pulsar
Pulsar is the world’s leading audience intelligence platform, harnessing rich data sets, AI and human minds, so clients can access nuanced and actionable insights that get straight to what matters most to their customers, their businesses and to society.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Francesco D’Orazio of Pulsar
00:00:42 – Francesco’s Career Journey
00:01:57 - The Rise and Fall of Virtual Worlds
00:05:40 – Overview of Pulsar
00:06:04 – Understanding Audience and Narrative Intelligence
00:10:11 - B2B vs. B2C Audience Engagement
00:15:06 - AI's Role in Data Analysis
00:16:22 - Forecasting Trends with Audience Data
00:20:01 - Best Practices for Utilizing Audience Listening Data
00:25:09 - Valuable Marketing Advice Received
00:27:15 - Outro and Contact Information
Quotes
"The thing that most companies get wrong is that they go with the one platform fits all approach in terms of how they communicate on these different channels." Francesco D’Orazio, founder of Pulsar.
“What AI has done is give us incredibly flexible tools for analysing data in a way that before was quite complex and required a lot of training or specific machine learning models." Francesco D’Orazio, founder of Pulsar.
"Different communities look at the same topic and brand in very different ways. So, your message should be aligned on how these messages are articulated by the different communities in an audience." Francesco D’Orazio, founder of Pulsar.
Follow Francesco:
Francesco D’Orazio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francescodorazio/
Pulsar’s website: https://www.pulsarplatform.com/
Pulsar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/pulsar-platform/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Francesco D’Orazio at Pulsar
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Francesco D’Orazio
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Francesco D'Orazio. Francesco founded a company called Pulsar. Welcome to the show, Francesco. Thanks for having me, Mike. It's great to be here. It's great to have you on. We always like to start by allowing guests to introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about their career history. So tell us a little bit about what you've done and what led you to found Pulsar.
Francesco: Yeah, so I was lucky enough to be at Uni at the time where the web was becoming a thing. I think I started my Uni degree in 1997. And at that time, the internet was starting to blow up and it was starting to emerge as a major force in the media space. And so I started to apply what I was learning to the internet and I got into trying to understand how societies and culture is kind of like what's developing on the internet. And actually one of the first things that I studied was how rumours spread online through forums and blogs and all of that. And that got me into that space of trying to understand what are the kind of like narratives and the trends that are emerging on the web. But then I got into an academic path. I did my PhD in social science and I did half of that in Italy and half in Canada. and while i was doing that i developed this appetite for building tech solutions related to what i was studying and so i decided to make the leap from academia and i founded the first startup which was a bad marketing company in 2004 so applying that idea of rumours to to the web and turning into an online community where people could connect with brands and organizations and influence the way they shape, the way they design products and campaigns. With that company, I then moved on to a virtual world company. So I created like an online social network for avatars, which got quite a lot of press because you could create profiles for avatars instead of humans. And that was at the time when Second Life was really big and you were just trying to connect. what happens on the web, what happens on inside virtual worlds, which were quite kind of like isolated environments at the time. And then after that, I thought, like, I'm going to take a break and get a job. And so I got a job at an innovation consultancy called Face. And within a year, year and a half in that job, the job was literally trying to understand how we can bring millions of people that are sharing opinions on the web within an innovation funnel and how we can use that insight to build better products. And within a year and a half of doing that, I built a bunch of tools with a team that then became Pulsar. And then Pulsar effectively then swallowed the agency and then it became the company that it is today.
Mike: Wow, so, I mean, there's a lot there. I think the first thing I've got to ask you, and this intrigues me, because when Second Life was big, I thought it was really exciting, it was going to change the world. We've not really done this whole avatar meeting, and we're now looking at basically pictures of people's faces on Teams all the time. Why do you think that virtual environment never took off?
Francesco: Well, I think it did take off, but it did take off in a different shape than the way we imagined it. I'm saying this because I was there when it happened. So what happened with virtual worlds, the 3D environments were there before social media was there. What happened in 2004, 2005, 2006 is that social media started to get real time. So the benefit that you would get from being in an environment where you could interact with people in real time through chat rooms that ended up having 3D environment, got completely outweighed by being able to be on a web page and seeing someone commenting live in response to what you were just posting. And so that real-time nature of the second wave of social media after Web2, basically, is what cannibalized completely 3D online environments. And we've been trying to get back to that immersive dream for the last 50 years, really. And this is what my PhD was about. There's been this kind of focus on trying to reach his promised land of immersive media that has been going in waves since effectively the 60s and then the 80s when you had cyberspace and Neuromancer and the whole side of kind of like a a science fiction dedicated to cyberpunk and that kind of like envisioning an inhabitable information space effectively. And then you started to get the waves of that going into iMac cinemas, the gaming experiences like the Nintendo gaming experiences, all of those consoles that promise the more immersive world until you get to, you know, the last wave is what happened with Meta really. with the metaverse, which actually was just a reincarnation of a previous wave. The metaverse term was coined in the 90s and was part of that kind of like second wave of the back of cyberspace where you started to see this 3D world. So I think the reason why it hasn't taken off to answer to kind of like a short point is that it's not convenient enough. the value of the clunkiness of a 3D environment interaction is just not outweigh the value of what we're getting from video and what we're getting from real-time textual communication on the web. So why bother? Convenience trumps anything. And that's why AI is successful also right now. It's convenient. Convenient for images, for text, for insights, for anything.
Mike: That's fascinating. That's a really simple explanation of what I think was a very complicated phenomenon. Obviously, people are still fighting to get us into the metaverse, not least meta. Anyway, let's move back to talk about Pulsar because I think that's what's really interesting. So, you talked about creating Pulsar in your role and that ultimately swallowing the business and becoming the business. So, what does Pulsar do?
Francesco: So Pulsar is an audience and narrative intelligence company, which means that we try and understand where the audience is at in relation to a brand, a topic, a product or something that is happening in society. And then we help organizations craft messages that matter to those audiences based on what we know about those audiences. It's a way of baking the audience at the core of anything organizations do and you know this has been a mantra for a long time but what we've seen over the last 30-40 years is this kind of like tsunami of audience engagement that has kind of like broken into every space of life that used to be quite confined and quite sanitized You know, crypto is one of the latest evolutions of that where you get like the audience breaking into the world of finance as a force that finance has never seen before in terms of like outsider input. And so the tools that you deal with that have been changing over the last 100 years. You know, you start having like surveys and statistics in the I mean, kind of like in the 30s and 40s and trying to understand what people thought about the war and policies. And you started to optimize the machine in the 50s and in the 60s. But really, it's when you start getting this real time signal from the audience with the web that the game has really shifted massively, both in positive and in negative terms. And so it was quite interesting for me to be as a Gen Xer at the intersection of that, because I grew up in a world without the Internet. And then I became an adult in a world that was completely engulfed by the internet, so I still find it fascinating. For my kids and for people that are like even just like five, ten years younger than me, that's like not interesting at all, it is what it is. But I still see the difference and that it's fascinating how rumours spread, how public opinion shifts and the changes that we've seen in the last, even in the last two years is insane.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. It's really exciting. And a lot of organizations really care about what's happening and understanding what's happening with their audiences. Could you give us perhaps some examples of the kind of companies or organizations that make use of Pulsar and how you help them?
Francesco: Yes, there's a baseline use case, which is social listening and media intelligence, which is effectively understanding what people are saying and what the media is saying about a specific topic. Now, the way you use that can vary differently depending on how advanced the organization is. Let's say at the bottom of the pyramid there are the companies that are just trying to not be caught off guard and so they just monitoring things and they say something crops up that they should be reacting to if you start moving up the ladder you start seeing people using that for example for customer experience and so they want to improve the way their products are perceived or their products are designed or delivered and they want to know what they should be focusing on. So we provide the best real-time signal for people to understand what they're doing wrong and what they're doing right. If you go another level up, you can start seeing companies using this data for planning their strategy. they start looking at where's the white space, how do we enter this category, what kind of messaging we should be using and how is it working in relation to what competitors are doing. Is there a gap that we should enter? Is there an opportunity that we should take? And then if you start going up, there's like top levels that are companies that are using these in, in predictive ways. So you'll be, you want to spot what kind of like narratives or cultural trends are happening in public opinion or in culture and try and pre-empt how your organization should be positioning itself or react to those to be able to capitalize on those trends or just simply being in tune with where the audience is at. Effectively, what we see ourselves as a machine for tuning your organization to what the zeitgeist is in the audience.
Mike: And I think that's interesting. And I want to dig in a little bit later into a little bit more about how you help these companies. Most of the audience listening to this podcast is going to be in the B2B sector. And traditionally, it's been consumer or governments or public sector, or maybe even third sector that have been really switched on about understanding trends and understanding what's happening with audiences. And arguably, B2B has been a little bit behind. Do you agree with that? And then do you see B2B companies using Pulsar to really understand their audience?
Francesco: Yeah b2b is as crucial for us as the consumer audience and so the types of company use us, it is true that I’ve been historically behind a couple of things happen in the space first of all, the veil has been completely torn in terms of, Who is the audience of B2B? And the assumption is not that the audience of B2B is people, like it is consumers for B2C companies. So you should start treating that audience as you treat the consumers that you're focusing for B2C campaigns. And you need to think of that audience in terms of cultural affinities, in terms of emotions, in terms of behaviours, in terms of brand. It does not require a completely different playbook because you're talking to humans. On top of that, yes, you can then deploy specific strategies that are related to B2B. And those strategies range from educating customers to providing actionable insights on their category. So there are many, many ways that you can make yourself useful. But the starting point is that you want to be as focused on humans as you are when you're working on a B2C campaign. And I think that also helps in the world of AI because that is the major opportunities that all brands are going to have now when most companies are going to implement or are implementing already AI in a way that makes their tone of voice drown in a sea of sameness. And if you maintain your distinctive, authentic tone and you have a clear understanding of who the audience is, you're just going to do easily much better than the average because everybody else is going to default to the basics.
Mike: That's really interesting and I think it's a really good point that B2B needs to actually catch up. I guess one of the things that probably intimidates a lot of people when they start looking at these kind of projects to understand and listen to audiences is just the volume of places you can go and look. Not necessarily always the volume of content, but there's so many social channels, you know, and you're obviously within Pulsar monitoring a wide range of different sources. How do you get the balance right? How do you simplify down what the audience is saying from all these different places?
Francesco: Yeah, so first of all, I think we've got into a new phase of what the media ecosystem used to look like even just five years ago. You know, when I started this business, the focus was on maybe like four or five platforms and the audience would be congregating in numbers that make those platforms relevant to you in those four or five avenues. And, you know, you wouldn't have to think about those. And, you know, that would be in terms of like advertising, but in terms of community engagement in terms of strategies. It's a simpler world in a way, and it's also a simpler world to generate insights off the back of that. Today, we have this kind of like post platform world where the fragmentation that has been introduced has completely blown up the playbook for most of the social media strategy that was in place even just five years ago. And now you have the ability to see so many different aspects of your audience through all these different platforms. And the thing that most companies get still wrong is that they go with one platform fit or approach in terms of how do they communicate on these different channels. And the game is always and will always be to be where your audience is and to be specific to the value of that specific platform where the audience is engaging in a specific way. and to not make it about yourself really, to make it about the audience and then look at how you exist in the world of the audience and not how the audience exists in your world. In terms of us trying to make sense of those platforms, I mean obviously I feel like we had a gentle ramp in terms of trying to standardize data from hundreds of different data sources and now we've got thousands and actually in some cases like millions when you look at like news organizations and you look at more traditional media sources. So that fragmentation that exists today it's something that we are well trained to cope with. I think that the major changes in this space have been the change of formats that has introduced a lot of complexity in terms of introducing like audio platforms, image platforms, video platforms and different types of formats within those as well so the short form content the fact that you have text overlays on most videos so all of that means that i think if ai didn't exist today we would be in a very different place in terms of like how we can understand that because what ai has done is given us incredibly flexible tools for analysing data in a way that before was quite complex and required a lot of training or specific machine learning models. But today with AI we can do video transcriptions, we can describe what's in an image, we can transcribe an audio discussion, and we can extract insights from visuals by doing OCR on an image and understanding if an affiliate marketing code has been shared in a video, for example, and we can use that for attribution. So the use cases are really huge because the formats of the engagement from customers in these different communities are really diverse and if you can actually deploy your techniques for analysing that data in effective ways, the signals are incredible, like incredibly rich. We run a lot of work on integrating traditional data sources like survey data, for example, for reputation management and social media data and news analysis. And what we see is that when you create a framework where you can analyse both data sources, the surveys, for example, on how stakeholders are perceiving your brand and discussions that you see on social and on the news about your brand, the signal we get from social news usually anticipates the signal we get from a survey by about six months. And so you effectively get a warning shot for what's to come when you see the dip in the brand tracker, for example, from survey data, and you traditionally didn't know what caused that dip because you didn't know what question you should have been asking at that point. What we do is that you can go back almost with a time machine and explain that dip with what you can see in the social data. And that adds a whole new level of complexity and opportunity in the strategy.
Mike: I think that's really important what you said there, that some of the signals you see on social effectively forecast how attitudes as a whole are going to change. So presumably, you're maybe seeing a minority of your customers raising issues on social, that can be picked up early, that's not necessarily seen in a survey. But it's the start of a trend. Is that basically what you're saying? Or is it something different?
Francesco: Yeah, it's that, but it's also that the ability is on trying to understand how pervasive and prominent the signal is, and trying to have the right algorithms to make an educated bet on how big it's going to grow. We released recently this new protocol, Narratives AI. The idea is exactly that, is can we spot the early signals in culture to try and understand how an issue, a brand or something is perceived by the media or by the public and identify a direction of travel, but also put a quantitative number on it so that you know how much of the overall perception of that brand is constituted by that specific narrative and how is that narrative evolving over time. And if you spot the trend, where is it going to go next? What you should be doing? And what we're trying to do is move away from very productive ways of managing reputation and managing brands using indicators like sentiment, for example. If you think about how rudimentary sentiment is, even today that sentiment gets to a 97, 98% accuracy when you use LLMs to run sentiment and apply a lot of context to the analysis of sentiment, which is what we do now. Even with that, what you're getting is, is this conversation positive or negative and in relation to what? Fine, but what is that telling you? Not telling you anything other than a kind of like a symptom, but you're not going to get to the root of what is causing that perception and why things are going to go next because of that. So what we're trying to do is spot the narratives and we like the idea of narratives because those are the stories that we tell ourselves and our peers to make sense of the world. And those narratives reveal the deep-seated beliefs that people have about a topic or a brand or an issue. And when you unveil those beliefs, what you have is effectively a roadmap to behaviour. You go, because people believe this thing, we know that in the next six months, this is going to happen. There's different ways of deploying that insight. Like if you look at the narratives in the media, you can either assume that if the narratives in the media are not present in the public, you might see those narratives in the media as potentially shaping something that might appear in the public. Or if you see narratives in the media that have some kind of ego in the public, you consider the media is actually leveraging some of that zeitgeist and bringing it into their platforms to generate more audience traction and engagement and reflecting what society is doing. So either way, what you get is a nice dynamic between the audience and the media and how these narratives are born and whether some are becoming forces for culture to be shaped by, or some are just going to die. The battle we're fighting here is to try and make this data available to as many people as possible and not make it specific to the specialists. We obviously have data people, we have researchers, but this is basically the lifeblood of the community. So if you make this information available to everyone, marketing, politics, everything is going to get so much better, so much faster, so much more effective because it's going to be showing this connection between the audience and the organizations. And that's really what we want to do.
Mike: That's fascinating. I think one of the questions has got to be, you talk about the potential for people to get faster and more effective. What do great companies do to make use of their audience listening data? Are they always constantly changing course? Or are they building big strategies? You know, is there kind of a high level approach that people can use to take this kind of data and really improve their overall organizational performance?
Francesco: I think there's an element for flexibility and as a case for consistency. To start from consistency, because that's who you are and what you believe. And people like to know where people stand. As humans, we do not trust people that we don't know where they stand. We don't trust people that change stance on things too often. So consistency is key and that's why I think this is the golden age of brand. Like we have come out of a world where performance marketing was eating budgets and actually even the separation between performance marketing and brand marketing was completely fictitious. What you see today is because of the nature of the media ecosystem that we're involved in, brand really is where the game is at, and so consistency and staying true to yourself is key to make it. As a byproduct of that, authenticity is obviously the currency that everybody's looking for when trying to engage with an organization or leadership or anything that has a public profile. And this is also connected to the way we see the advertising and the engagement funnels evolving. Like a lot of people have been starting to talk about a zero-click world. A zero-click world being a world where we're kind of like moving away from an economy of attention based on getting you to click onto something and go to a specific page. And we're actually going into a world where the answers are available to you through systems that give you what you're looking for instead of pointing you to a page, which obviously changes completely the way marketing is done. So the other dynamic alongside this is that the platforms that we used to lean on for generating those clicks and generating that traffic are actually holding that traffic now and trying to keep you in the platform. And this is true for the social media platform but it's also true for search engines trying to provide you with answers thanks to AI instead of sending you to some links. And it's also better for us because we want the information we don't want to be sent to a specific page. So when that whole thing changes What you left with is a reliance on optimizing for impressions and reach and focusing people's attention on who you are and then leaving it to them to come to you when they're ready, rather than trying to funnel them into a specific route for traffic that delivers a specific conversion. And so, I'm excited because this golden age of brand means that we are going to be in a much more creative space where the people that don't take shortcuts using, for example, slop AI messaging and things like that, they're going to be easily standing out and do interesting things. And we're entering a world where execution is becoming trivial, but that doesn't mean that creativity is trivial. That simply means that Executing something becomes a lot easier than it was before and a lot cheaper than it was before, but that means that direction is going to become crucial. And so what do you shape that execution as? The idea behind it is going to become the differentiating value, not the budget that you have to produce something, which I think is also very exciting and it aligns really well with this brand shift.
Mike: I think that's a super positive message to leave it on. The fact that whilst execution may become easier, the creativity and the direction is potentially going to become harder. And that's where we as humans add value. Francesca, I really appreciate your time. Before I let you go, there's a couple of questions we always like to ask our guests. So the first one is, what's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever been given?
Francesco: Well I think for me it's always been about focusing on the audience first and everything else flows from that. And the thing that has become a mantra for me has been something that we learned from Netflix actually 10 years ago. We were going to them to show them how we could analyse the discussions about a TV show and how we could look at the audience of that specific TV show. And the response to them was like, this is interesting, but we don't really care about your audience of a TV show. Within each TV show, there are multiple audiences and each TV show thinks about the same TV show in very different ways. And that kind of like made me think about what we do. And it became the mantra of actually what Pulsar does, which is that different communities look at the same topic and brand in very different ways. So your message should be aligned to how these messages articulated by the different communities in an audience rather than trying to reach them with a single message. And so using the audience as a prism. is the best marketing advice that I've been given by Netflix, which set us on course to become an interesting company doing interesting stuff. This was like back in 2016.
Mike: Wow, that's great. That's fascinating. The other thing we like to ask people is if you're talking to someone who's maybe just graduated from university looking to start their career in marketing, what advice would you give them about achieving a great career in marketing?
Francesco: Be curious, be curious in terms of audiences, because that's where everything starts. So I got into this because I was into music and music is a great school for understanding audiences because each artist has his own audience and his own community. So understanding that allows you to decide who you should be booking for an event. And that's a superpower. So be curious about audiences, be curious about technology and be curious about creativity. And these are the three kind of like assets that you need in this game and if you are good at understanding audiences, understanding creativity and understanding technology, I think it's going to be a smashing success.
Mike: Fantastic. Francesco, it's been amazing. We've talked, it feels like, about quite a lot, but it seems like there's so much more we could cover. If people want to find out more or perhaps learn more about Pulsar, what's the best way to do that?
Francesco: They can check out the website, pulsarplatform.com, P-U-L-S-A-R platform.com, or they can just email me, name.lastname at pulsarplatform.com.
Mike: And I think you also have a podcast as well talking about some of these issues too.
Francesco: We do have a podcast, thanks for reminding me. Podcast is called Audiences and it's a podcast where I ask three simple questions for every episode. So every episode is an audience and it's focused on one audience and we invite a guest and we get the guest to tell us who's the audience of Wrestling, who's the audience of Tesla, who's the audience of AI tell us how their audience has been evolving over the last five to 10 years and tell us where is their audience evolving next. We wanted to create like a podcast to spotlight the opposite of what normally gets spotlight. Most podcasts focus on the content, the thing that is being produced. We wanted to focus on the people that are consuming that content, that are consuming those products.
Mike: That sounds fascinating. Definitely a podcast to add to my listen list. Francesco, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.
Francesco: Thanks for having me.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Return on Investment or Risk of Ignoring? – Gurmeet Dhaliwal – Diodes Incorporated
Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes Incorporated, shares his journey from engineering to marketing, and Diodes' approach to enhancing brand awareness, generating demand, and building strong customer relationships.
He offers valuable insights on how to effectively market to engineers, strike the right balance between bottom-of-the-funnel tactics and top-of-the-funnel branding, and emphasizes the importance of sales and marketing alignment.
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About Diodes Incorporated:
Diodes Incorporated (Nasdaq: DIOD), a Standard and Poor’s SmallCap 600 and Russell 3000 Index company, delivers high-quality semiconductor products to the world’s leading companies in the automotive, industrial, computing, consumer electronics, and communications markets. We leverage our expanded product portfolio of analog and discrete power solutions combined with leading-edge packaging technology to meet customers’ needs. Our broad range of application-specific products and solutions-focused sales, coupled with global operations including engineering, testing, manufacturing, and customer service, enable us to be a premier provider for high-volume, high-growth markets. For more information, visit www.diodes.com
About Gurmeet Dhaliwal:
As the Head of Corporate Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes Incorporated, Gurmeet Dhaliwal oversees both investor relations and corporate marketing. He has developed a robust integrated marketing strategy with a strong focus on digital marketing, utilizing both inbound and outbound tactics. Prior to his role at Diodes, Gurmeet led Corporate Marketing at Pericom, which was acquired by Diodes Incorporated in 2015. He has also held various senior marketing positions at prominent public companies, including CA Technologies, EMC, Cisco, Zarlink, and National Semiconductor.
Gurmeet holds an MBA from Saint Mary’s College in Moraga, CA, and a Bachelor’s degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering from UC Santa Barbara, CA.
Time Stamps:
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Gurmeet Dhaliwal
00:02:51 - Overview of Diodes Incorporated
00:07:43 - Building a Marketing Strategy at Diodes
00:08:00 - Engaging with Engineers in Marketing
00:12:05 - Successful Marketing Campaigns
00:14:06 - The Role of Digital Marketing and Analytics
00:18:35 - Sales and Marketing Collaboration
00:19:58 - The Role of Sales in the Research Process
00:21:07 - Transitioning to Investor Relations
00:25:39 - Best Marketing Advice Received
00:27:59 - Advice for Young Marketers
00:30:14 - Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Quotes:
“ We always talk about ROI in marketing, right? Return on investment. But sometimes you have to think of ROI as risk of ignoring.” Gurmeet Dhaliwal, Corporate Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes Incorporated.
"Engineers like to get information on their own... they prefer doing their research... by the time they are ready to engage, they have already done their research." Gurmeet Dhaliwal, Corporate Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes Incorporated.
"One of the things I do is every time is I think of is, how can I simplify this? How can I make it simpler?" Gurmeet Dhaliwal, Corporate Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes Incorporated.
Follow Gurmeet:
Gurmeet Dhaliwal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhaliwal/
Diodes Incorporated website: https://www.diodes.com/
Diodes Incorporated on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/diodes-incorporated/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with Gurmeet Dhaliwal at Diodes Incorporated
Speakers: Mike Maynard, Gurmeet Dhaliwal
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Gurmeet Dhaliwal. Gurmeet is the Head of Corporate Marketing and Investor Relations at Diodes. Welcome to the podcast, Gurmeet.
Gurmeet: Thank you, Mike. Thank you for having me.
Mike: It's great to have you on. I mean, I've obviously known you for a while, Gemi, but the listeners won't necessarily know you. So can you tell us a little bit about your career and why you actually chose Diodes as your current company?
Gurmeet: Yes, Mike, currently my position, as you said, is head of corporate marketing and investor relations at Diodes Incorporated. But as you probably know from our previous conversations, I have been in many different companies and at different positions. I started my career as an engineer at National Semiconductor. So when I was an engineer, I worked on many different products in different areas. And at one point, my role was product assurance engineer. That's when I worked very closely with the customers as well as with the factories. So I had a broader view of the business, which I really enjoyed. And that's when I thought, okay, you know, I want to be closer to the customer. And that's when I chose to shift to marketing. I started as a new business development manager and then did product marketing and then eventually got into the internet marketing. So at that time, it was new. Everyone, we were trying to figure out how to build websites and go online. So that's how I transitioned from engineering into marketing. But since then, I've been, you know, worked for various kind of companies in, you know, in the B2B space. which was National Semiconductor Cisco Systems, EMC, CA Technologies. And then after that I joined a smaller company in the Silicon Valley called Pericom. So I started as a head of marketing at Pericom and then a couple of years after that Pericom was acquired by Diodes Incorporated. back in 2015, I think. Yeah. So that's how I became part of the Diodes team. And over time, Diodes has been a very good company. I really enjoy working here and continue to, you know, expand my role as well as do new things, try different ideas. And it's been fun since then.
Mike: That sounds great. I mean, I think, you know, listeners may not be familiar with diodes, so I'm interested to know what diodes manufacture. I know it's a lot more than just diodes.
Gurmeet: Yes, that's right. Diodes is a, you know, we have a very broad portfolio of products. As our name suggests, right, we started 60 plus years ago selling diodes. But since then, diodes has expanded its portfolio organically as well as through acquisitions. So now our broad product portfolio includes discrete products, analog, mixed signal, all these products. Unfortunately, our name doesn't serve us well and doesn't really explain the portfolio, but the portfolio is very broad. If you look at it, half of our business comes from analog and power discrete products.
Mike: And I think it's interesting because, I mean, a lot of the news about the semiconductor industry is all around AI and processors and things like that. But actually, you know, a lot of your products are really, really important, even though perhaps they're not what people might think of as the sexy semiconductors.
Gurmeet: Yes, they are. If you look at our portfolio, like I suggested before, we serve different markets. First of all, we are in five market segments, which is automotive, industrial, consumer, communications, and computing, which is very broad. Our products go in all these areas. I can talk about the sub-segments as well, where we are focused on. But if you look at our products, all our peripheral products, power management products, discrete products, connectivity products, and our timing portfolio, It's all around the processor. So if you open up, you know, if you look at a block diagram of any computer or server or embedded computer, which is now in everywhere, right? Except the processor and memory, we pretty much make everything that is needed all around the processor. So I think that's where we bring value with lots of different pieces that allow the processor to communicate and manage, whether it's power management, provide timing solution, we have a complete timing tree solution, as well as the connectivity products.
Mike: I mean, that's interesting. I love that description, you know, almost everything apart from the processor and the memory. So you've clearly got this very broad range of products that are really important. Are there particular areas that Diode really excels at?
Gurmeet: Yeah, I think there are a number of areas that, you know, first of all is as we have expanded our product portfolio, which is, like I mentioned earlier, is very broad and addresses different blocks of the application, right? That's one. The second one is our manufacturing capability, our manufacturing excellence, right? That's where we excel, and we have a hybrid model of manufacturing, right? So broad technology that we have. Today, if you look at it, you know, half of our manufacturing is from fab perspective. 50 to 60% is internal, the rest is external. So this hybrid model gives us the opportunity to bring the right technology at the right time, so we are not tied to just one specific technology. The other one is our global footprint. We have factories in the US, in UK, in Scotland, in Germany, in Taiwan, China, and beyond. So we are closer to the customers we serve and we are very responsive and serve them the way they want to be served, when they want, what they want, where they want. So these are the things that I want to highlight is the soft side, which are in addition to the technology, the product. The other areas, you know, if you look at is now everyone is talking about AI, AI, right? We have been, you know, in AI for years or when we used to call it machine to machine learning, right? If you look at, you know, we have a product line from packet switches. That is in pretty much in every AI server we work with or we are in the process of working with customers. So that's a unique opportunity for us. In addition to that, that's not only the product, right? If you look at a traditional server, when we were in traditional server, we had about $50 to $53 content per box that diodes can offer. Now in this new server, we have improved it to the, it's up to $90 per box. So that is by bringing new products, new technology, expanding our portfolio. We are constantly bringing new products to the market. Last year alone, we introduced 750 new part numbers. And out of those, about half of them were for the automotive market segment. So I think we're constantly innovating, bringing new products, expanding into these markets that we serve.
Mike: You're obviously very enthusiastic about the company, which is fantastic. I guess the obvious question is you've got all these products in all these different categories and you've got all these markets you address. So what's your approach in terms of building a marketing strategy? How do you put it together with so many things to control?
Gurmeet: Yeah, so, you know, marketing strategy for any marketer, like it's the couple of things, right? It's the goal is to enhance your awareness, right? And ultimately, marketing's job one is demand gen, right? But the way, or I would say my philosophy is that we stay customer focused and with integrated marketing. What I mean is with different channels, using different channels for the marketing that is appropriate at that time. So, you know, our focus is that enhance awareness, generate demand, and cultivate relationships. while we facilitate customers and their buying cycle. And that we do it by listening to them, by engaging with them, educating them, inspiring them. So that's how, you know, what we are focused on. And of course, it's all about what customer wants, what technology, but keeping that in mind that we want to build longer term relationships, cultivate relationships, and continue to serve them what they want, when they want, where they want.
Mike: And of course, I mean, a lot of what you're doing is marketing to engineers, which is notoriously difficult. So I mean, how do you excite and inspire those engineers you're trying to reach?
Gurmeet: So number one is, you know, you and I, we both have been engineers, right? So we understand how engineers think. and how they like to get information. And engineers like to get information on their own, right? They prefer doing their research. That's where I think is web has played a significant role, not today, but for the probably last two decades, right? Where engineers, they used to, you remember the days when Data book was the only thing, right? That's where you, or you call the sales rep and get the next data book, revised data book, and that's all you had to work with. Now, you know, with the website, which initially, if you remember when we transitioned from data books to website, people were skeptical, right? But now with the web and the information that is available online, it makes the design engineer's job very easy. They can find the information when they want. You know, design engineers work at odd hours, right? They like to get the information maybe at 9 p.m. And this website works 24 by 7, and they can go and get the information when they need, do their research. You know, by the time they are ready to engage, they have already done their research. They know what they want. And our goal is, coming back to your question is, Keeping that in mind, how they work, how they like to get information, what they prefer, and then we provide the information the way they like to consume. Number one, you know, like in our business, data sheet is number one. Then it's app notes, eval boards, other supporting, design supporting information. And then if they need to talk to somebody, make it very easy for them to send us an email. you know, they raise their hand that I want to talk to somebody will be happy to do that. So I think that's how we are trying to serve them the way they want, trying to listen and engage with them. Again, give them different options, whether they want to consume the information from our website or from our distributors website, or through different channels, whether it's social media or email or calling somebody or picking up the phone. So it's up to them how they want to engage with us. And then once they do, then like the things I said, is make sure that everything is available to them in one place so they can quickly access that.
Mike: That's really interesting. I mean, you've talked a lot about I guess what we call bottom of the funnel stuff where people are already interested in engaging your products. I mean, one of the things I think there's always a challenge in technology is balancing that providing data that people need to actually select a product with, you know, enhancing the brand. So people actually come to your website and look for it. So how do you balance that sort of, you know, bottom of the funnel stuff versus the top of the funnel brand?
Gurmeet: So that's, yeah, you know, both, like I said initially, right, that's enhance the brand or enhance the awareness of the brand and the product. I think they are, they're both important, but I don't think they really, to balance, they don't really compete, right, for the enhance the brand and bigger picture. that is a longer term strategy, right? You don't change your strategy every quarter, right? So the strategy is longer term, you stick with it, but your tactics may change. So I think that is once it's defined, then it's just the execution point of view. But I think the bottom of the funnel things that we talked about, that depends on the customer or prospect you engage with, where they are, how they would like to. So that is, I think, is more engaging and more demanding, right, that part. So we try to kind of separate the two, but but linked together. So the bigger picture stuff is already defined, and you're constantly reinforcing, enhancing it, versus the bottom of the funnel, like you said, is more tactical. It becomes more one-to-one, right? So the broader picture is we try to tell everyone, right, Diodes offers these, right, analog and discrete power solutions with these products, and then the portfolio. But once they know that, then, you know, somebody might be interested in one product. Somebody might be interested in three other products. That's where we really, we use marketing automation. We use our people to engage with them, depending on at what stage they are. Our sales people are engaged, and our FAEs, and ultimately our goal is to get the design win.
Mike: That's amazing. I just love the way you talk about the way you approach this strategy for marketing. I mean, I think what people also really interested in is about great campaigns. So is there one, you know, particularly brilliant campaign you pull out as being one of your best? Yeah, that's, I think there are
Gurmeet: campaigns that we can talk about, but best campaign, there are a number of them. What we are focused on, I would say, is a couple of things. Before I get to the campaign question, let me explain. I think one of the things is, remember when we were doing traditional marketing, which was like I talked about data books, which was print, right? The problem at that time was that you do print something, you put it out there, you had some information who's consuming your content, But not as much. You may have heard, a long time ago, people used to say, any CMO's dilemma is, I know 50% of my budget is working, but I don't know which half. So I think with the internet marketing, with the analytics, with all these tools, we have solved that problem. is right now we know what's working, what's not working. We can quickly test things. If it's working, we do more of it. If it doesn't work, we change the course. And you can get the feedback. So I think with this approach, with the tools and internet marketing and digital marketing, it allows us to see, create a campaign or create an idea, test it with A-B testing and the tools. And then with the feedback we're getting, the analysis you can do, what my approach is, if things don't work, let's definitely, when there's a new idea, try it. Don't be afraid of trying that new idea. Try it. If it works, expand it, do more of it. If it doesn't work, figure out a way to tweak it. And if it doesn't work, if it fails, then you can quickly shut it down. When we were back in the print days, if you put something out there, it's out there. It's very hard to change, right? Now you can change the course. So what I am trying to do is build, like I said initially when you talked to me about the strategy question, use an integrated marketing approach. build this marketing machine at Diodes that allows us to do both. You know, first is there is a lot of inbound, like we talked about earlier, right? Design engineers like to get information on their own. So that generates inbound traffic. We make sure what kind of things will help us with the inbound marketing, right? But that's not only what we can rely on, right? Then we have the outbound piece, which helps us what are the things we can do that we are, you know, all the way like from very broad messages, we have a newsletter that we do once a month. And also the other thing which I'm trying to do is keep in mind is that, you know, design engineers don't like to be, you know, like I said earlier, is they like to get information on their own, but they also don't like to get too many emails and where we annoy them. So my approach is that with the newsletter, we send one newsletter a month, And that way that we stay connected with them, we stay, you know, in sight and their mind that we are here, we offer these products that, or whatever we want to say in that newsletter, but we don't bother them, you know, every day here's, you know, another email, another email. Then we have the next level is the targeted marketing. That is very targeted when we know somebody has raised the hand and they said, you know, I'm interested in automotive or I'm interested in compute segment. Then we'll send them a very targeted message. about that technology, about that product that'll help them solve their specific problem. So then they listen. So it has to be, the message has to be relevant. It should be somebody that cares, and then they will listen. That's what I was talking about engaging with them. That's how we do it. And then it goes down to ABM, right? One-to-one marketing. That's very specific. It can be a customer. It can be a single person, right? And that part, we do it in conjunction with sales because they know what's going on with that account. We listen to them, you know, what exactly they want to, and that's a combination of sales and marketing. And that's, you know, one of the things that when I was at EMC, we did a lot of work with sales and marketing integration, right? I learned a lot that how important it is for sales and marketing to work together. And it really not only, you know, once you have a prospect or this, but even for demand gen, right? Who are the people to target? And it's very important for ABMPs that sales and marketing work together before marketing starts sending messages to a specific person or an account, right?
Mike: I mean, that's fascinating. I love the way you talk about sales and marketing working together, because that's not always the case in companies. Yes. I'm interested, though, there's been a lot of research saying that increasingly engineers and other people in B2B contexts, they're actually spending more time doing research. They're spending more time being impacted by marketing and less time interacting with salespeople. Is that something you've seen in your role?
Gurmeet: I don't know about, time may have, you know, how much time they spend with sales may have decreased. Like we talked about earlier, they like to get their information on their own. They usually have done quite a bit research by then. But I think in our business, sales and FAEs, right, our field applications engineers, play an important role. I think what this online marketing has done or the capability for our customers, design engineers, to do their research on their own, has enhanced and made them more efficient, and the cycle time has been reduced. Like I talked about before, if you needed a data sheet, you call the sales rep, then he or she has to drive to your office and drop the data book or mail it to you. So it used to be three days before you get the data sheet. Now you can get data sheets with one click. So you've done a lot of research. I think that cycle time has shortened, but in my mind, I think sales and FAEs play a very important role. And what this has allowed us to do is, you know, they can serve more customers and the quality of the conversation has improved and they can really focus on the problem that they're trying to solve, right? Every, you know, for example, a lot of our customers have the same products available, right? There are reference designs available. If everyone picked up the same reference design and built a product, then our customers, every product will look the same. So our customers, just like we differentiate our products, our customers are trying to differentiate their products too, right? They are trying to optimize their design. They are trying to have features and this. And I think that's where these conversations help with working with our sales team, our FAEs, trying new ideas, trying new things. And as a result, you know, we get ideas for new products from these conversations, what our customers want, how they are trying to differentiate their product so we can have the right product for them. So I think, yeah, I would agree. So just to summarize, I would agree, you know, the research, how the work is done has changed, but I think they still play an important role.
Mike: I think this is fascinating. It's amazing how much you think about marketing when it's actually only a part of your job. I mean, we talked before about you also being responsible for investor relations. I think a lot of people listening to the podcast who will be in marketing roles at the moment, they'd be interested to know, how did you actually get into the investor relations side?
Gurmeet: Yeah, that's interesting. So it's both. I think it happens with the planning. And I remember one of my managers at National Semiconductor used to say, plan for serendipity, right? A lot of things happen serendipitously. So what happened was, I think, here's what I would think, you know, a lot of it is serendipity and also based on the interest. When I go back and think about it, even when I talked to you about, you know, when I was an engineer and I wanted to have a broader picture of the customer's view, right, even at that time when I was in marketing, I always was interested in bigger picture of the company, you know, what our CEO is saying. I used to listen to the conference calls, what are they saying, and interested in just the big picture, you know. One was, like I talked about from the marketing role, is what are customers saying, what they need, how we can serve them. And second is what are investors saying and what do they care and what they want to listen to it. But that was it. I think then always I've been, you know, being in marketing, I had some contact with investor relations, but, you know, never got really involved directly with that. When I came to Pericom, our CEO and CFO pulled me in on a couple of things, you know, to help with either messaging or things like that related to investor relations, and I think that my interest was kind of intrigued again, you know, into, like, this is interesting. And then, like I said, with Diodes, right, when we merged, I was mainly focused on marketing side, but over time, a couple of executives asked me if I can help with some of the things on the IR side, because I think there's a direct relation for corporate marketing, your messaging, but also what you are saying on the investor's side. So I started doing that for a couple of years, and then our IR person, the head of IR, decided to retire. And that's when I was asked, would you take over that role too? And since then, it's been fun. It's a lot of fun. I'm learning a lot. As you know, you know, from my career is I like to learn. I like to take challenges and improve things. I'm a continuous improvement believer guy, you know, even though it's every day you improve something a little bit. So I think that's given me that opportunity. to engage with a different audience, talk to them, understand. Same thing, you know, what are they looking for, understanding who are they, you know, like sell-side analysts, buy-side analysts, our investors, what is important to them, what do they care about, how we can give them the information they want. in a very, you know, in a trusted way. So I also think the other philosophy, which is not a strategy, but philosophy in general, is, you know, of course, you know, marketing role is to expand and enhance and, you know, wherever we get the opportunity is talk about us, but ultimately to you know, build relationships with customers and expand. For example, let's say you engage with one customer. As you know, in our business, when you have one customer, let's say you acquire a new customer for one product. So your goal is to expand the share of the wallet, right? How can you sell adjacent products? What else do they need? And I think that is best done by developing the relationship and building trust So we need to, you know, whether it's sales, marketing, or anyone who touches the customer needs to become a trusted advisor, that we give them the information they need, serve them well, and kind of become their advisor, right? Trusted advisor, where they come to get the information, we give it to them. in a timely manner, the accurate information. So I think that helps strengthen relationships and cultivate new relationships and continue to expand them. But, you know, a lot of things we do based on trust, and that helps us expand into other markets, applications, products, whatever you want to call it.
Mike: I love that. I mean, that's just such a great way to end. Before we go, though, there's always a couple of questions we'd like to ask our guests. So the first one is, what's the best marketing advice you've ever been given?
Gurmeet: Okay. One is, a senior gentleman told me, we always talk about ROI in marketing, right? Or in any business, ROI, which is, you know, return on investment. But sometimes you have to think of ROI as risk of ignoring. It's some things you can't ignore, right? Even though you may not have good ROI on it, but you have to do it. So get it done. So I thought that is always, I look at, you know, of course, the first thing is we look at ROI as a return on investment. And the second is ROI is risk of ignoring. So I thought that was a good advice to have another lens to look at, right? The other one, which is, you know, it may not sound like very, You know, the wording is exciting, but I think when you think deep about it, it was very meaningful. It was one of my senior VP. We were talking about something, you know, a lot of things about the digital marketing and platform and e-commerce and things like that. And he said is, you know, we were 30 people in the room. He said, everyone talked about a lot of things I heard, but no one talked about simplifying things. You know, I said, oh, okay, simplifying things. But then I kept on thinking about it. You know, we human beings, we get so excited about complex things, and sometimes we make them even more complex than they have to. So now one of the things I do is every time is I think of is, how can I simplify this? How can I make it simpler? And I think if you keep that in mind and wear that hat, it solves a lot of problems and we don't have to make them complex and get people excited about it. So I try to get excited about how we can simplify things rather than how we can make them more complex.
Mike: That's, I mean, that's all great, great advice. I love that. The other question we like to ask is, you know, given the amount of change that's happening in marketing and, you know, AI particularly, what would be your advice to a young person who was just starting their marketing career?
Gurmeet: Yeah. Okay. So I think is, I think in these days, kids are very smart. I don't think they need my advice, but if I go back and think of, you know, the things that I would tell somebody or, you know, I think number one is, like I said earlier, is learn the business, all right? You need to understand a bigger picture of the business. Even if you're starting new, of course, you're not gonna get everything from day one, but be curious about it. Understand the big picture of the business, why we do things, why do our customers buy what they buy, right? Why do we sell it to them? How these things work or make difference when they go into the car or a computer or whatever that might. So I think that bigger picture view is good idea, right? The second is from marketing person, like we talked about earlier, don't ignore sales and as well as the people who are developing, designing products. You can't be just say, you know, I'm a marketer, I know how to message it and how to package it and I know better. No, I think it's understand both sides of the business unit, what they're trying to do. And from sales, you learn a lot about customers. So I think that's also having a, big picture view and joined at the hip with sales helps. And continue to be curious. Try new ideas like we talked about. Now we have tools and ways to try new ideas, build something. If you have some idea, try it. Try it with A, B, Mark, you know, testing. You can try your idea with 10 people who you feel safe, right? You can make mistakes. and fix them. So then try those things, and if it works, then say, okay, how can I take it to the next level and expand it? And if it doesn't work, then let's change the course. So I think curiosity, big picture, learning, continuous learning, and working across the aisles, right, with other departments, and being collaborative. That's, to me, I think these are the things I would say to focus on.
Mike: That's great advice. I mean, Gurmeet, I really appreciate your time. You've been so generous with all your knowledge and insight. And I will certainly be asking people about the risk of ignoring in the future. I love that term. If anybody would like to get in contact with you, I mean, what would be the best way for them to reach you?
Gurmeet: I think the best way is LinkedIn these days, so I'm on LinkedIn, so they can connect me or reach out to me via LinkedIn or otherwise. As with my marketing and IR role, I think that information is on our website as well with my email and phone number, but I would please request no, you know, no marketing solicitation, which, you know, I get lots of people contacting me. But but if if somebody genuinely wants to connect as a professional or have a question, that's perfectly fine.
Mike: Thank you. That's very generous, Gurmeet. Thank you so much for your time. And thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology. Thank you so much.
Gurmeet: It's a pleasure to have and have this conversation with you. Really enjoyed it.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
Brands, Beats & Bytes Podcast - Seizing Opportunities & Elevating Others
Mike recently joined the Brands, Beats & Bytes podcast to talk about his career journey. He shares some of his career-defining lessons and the values that have shaped his people-first leadership style. The conversation covers:
- Seizing opportunities when they arise
- Surrounding yourself with leaders who uplift others
- Understanding that mistakes aren’t the end of the world
- Leading with people at the forefront and empowering your team
Listen here: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brands-beats-bytes/id1463454598
Re-evaluating Marketing Automation: Are You Using Your Platform to Its Full Potential?
In this episode of Marketing Automation Moment, hosts Hannah Wehrly and Mike Maynard discuss why so many companies are reconsidering their marketing automation platforms and whether they’re truly using them to their full potential. They explore the rise of AI driven sales tools, market growth trends, and how businesses can get more from their existing platforms. Plus, in the Insightful Tip of the Week, they tackle when it’s the right time to change your MarTech stack.
- The Marketing Automation Moment on Apple Podcast
- The Marketing Automation Moment on Spotify
- The Marketing Automation Moment on napierb2b.com
About Napier
Napier is a PR-lead, full service marketing agency that specialises in the B2B technology sector. We work closely with our clients to build campaigns, focusing on achieving results that have a significant positive impact on their businesses and which, above all, ensure maximum return on their investment.
About Mike Maynard
Mike is the Managing Director/CEO of Napier, a PR and marketing agency for B2B technology companies. A self-confessed geek who loves talking about technology, he believes that combining the measurement, accountability and innovation that he learnt as an engineer with a passion for communicating ensures Napier delivers great campaigns and tangible return on investment.
About Hannah Wehrly
Hannah is the Head of Business Development and Marketing at Napier and leads on pitching, proposal writing, lead nurturing, email marketing, social media and content creation. Hannah joined the Napier team back in 2017 as a Marketing Specialist after completing her degree in Marketing and Communications, and her role focuses on developing new relationships with potential clients.
Time Stamps
[00:00:00] - Introduction
[00:01:12] - Acton’s eBook Insights and re-evaluating Marketing Automation Strategies
[00:02:25] - Understanding Platform Capabilities
[00:05:54] - Underutilisation of Marketing Automation Features
[00:08:08] - Market Growth and AI Influence
[00:11:49] - Salesforce’s Shift in Strategy
[00:13:22] - When to Change Your MarTech Stack
[00:16:29] - Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Follow Mike and Hannah:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Hannah Wehrly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-wehrly-b0706a107/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing Automation and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast – Marketing B2B Technology: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/marketing-b2b-technology/id1485417724
Transcript: Re-evaluating Marketing Automation: Are You Using Your Platform to Its Full Potential?
Hannah: Welcome to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Kelly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard. This is Napier's podcast to tell you about the latest news from the world of marketing automation.
Hannah: Welcome to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast. I'm Hannah Wehrly.
Mike: And I'm Mike Maynard.
Hannah: Today we talk about the number of companies re-evaluating their marketing automation strategy.
Mike: The fact that most people don't use the capabilities of their marketing automation platform.
Hannah: The growth of the market.
Mike: An AI sales development rep.
Hannah: And the insightful tip of the week of when should you look to change your MarTech tool stack.
Mike: Hi, Hannah, it's great to be back recording another episode of Marketing Automation Moment. Obviously, you were off for a little while. It's great you're back at Napier. And I'm really looking forward to having a much more frequent discussion about marketing automation platforms with you going forward.
Hannah: Thanks, Mike. I'm super excited to be back and actually super excited to be delving back into the market automation world. There seems to be a lot that's happened since I've been gone. So let's jump straight into it. I've got some real great things to talk to you about today.
Mike: It's great to hear lots has been happening, Hannah. What are the exciting stories you've seen?
Hannah: Well, let's kick off with Acton, Mike, because I actually received an email from them quite recently, a couple of weeks ago, and they were promoting their new e-books, very marketing focused, How to Find a Better Market Automation Solution. But it did have some interesting insights within it. And one of the things that they actually said was that 87% of companies are re-evaluating their market automation strategy. And I have to say, as an ebook, it was quite ballsy. They had a really good section about, you know, whether your market automation investment is paying off. Then they went straight and delved into, you know, how to migrate, how easy it can be. What did you think? Did you have a chance to read it?
Mike: Well, yeah, you said it through and I thought it was really interesting. I mean, obviously, it's basically Acton going, pick me, pick me, you know, choose us. But I was quite shocked that 87% of people are re-evaluating market automation. The cost of moving from one market automation platform to another is so big. And the reality is, is pretty much all the platforms have the capabilities to do at least all the basic functions you need. I wonder whether people are perhaps not really committing to making their platform work and perhaps blaming the platform rather than blaming what they're actually using it for.
Hannah: Yeah, I absolutely agree, Mike. It's really interesting. I always think there's in two areas. You've got the reasons why you'd actually want to look at other platforms, and then perhaps the reasons why actually you're not trained enough to understand what the platform can provide. For example, things like budget. If you are looking to cut marketing budget, you know, you're under pressure from your board, actually switching to a different platform could be a really good idea. But I often feel it's situations where actually the marketing team doesn't really understand the features or how to use the marketing automation platform fully, and instead they jump to another platform, they do all this hard work, they spend all this time, and then they're faced with the same problems because they haven't bothered to actually learn the features.
Mike: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, we have seen, particularly our enterprise clients, some changes. So, you know, and maybe we shouldn't say this publicly, but it's been pretty clear that large enterprise customers of Salesforce who were using other market automation platforms like, for example, Marketo, were being really strongly incentivized by Salesforce to move their marketing automation all onto that one Salesforce platform with their CRM. And there I know some of the amounts of money involved have been so compelling, it's been worth doing. It doesn't mean you shouldn't move, but I do agree with you. I think the first thing you should be doing is really looking at what you could do with your existing platform, rather than deciding that all the problems you have are platform related, rather than maybe training expertise and resource related.
Hannah: Oh, definitely. And I actually think this segues quite nicely into the second point of this podcast. And again, this is Act On. It's a very Act On heavy conversation today. They've actually recently done a webinar. And again, it was the hits, the misses and the opportunities of marketing automation in 2025. And what I thought was really interesting is that they talked about how email marketing is the main priority for marketers for marketing automation success. followed by social media management. I know you've got a couple of comments on that, Mike, so I'll chat that over to you in a second. I think what was really interesting is they said that 64% view nurturing prospects as the main element of a market automation platform. And to me this screams, I use this real big complex system just to send emails. I don't know what you think.
Mike: I think, you know, you're being a bit harsh there. I mean, one of the things is, is that was obviously a question where people could pick more than one option. And I think nurturing prospects, fundamentally, that's what marketing automation does. I mean, I was actually quite surprised it was that low. You know, interestingly, only 42% ranked personalized outreach as being a top use case. I mean, that's kind of scary, really. You think with all the power of marketing automation platforms, that would be, you know, a key focus is personalize your outreach. So I don't know, I wasn't surprised so much with that. But I felt actually, you know, again, we're kind of seeing these things that suggest that marketing automation platforms are massively underused in terms of what people actually do versus what they potentially could achieve.
Hannah: I think that's a really great point, Mike, and I guess maybe I've been a little bit harsh because I think what I really am trying to say is that, as you mentioned, there's all these features and, you know, in previous episodes we've talked about things like dynamic content, we've talked about nurturing and segmenting your lists, and it's taking it from being a nurture and email marketing system to this real complex system that can really deliver a great return of investment.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, I found some other really interesting stats there. So if you look at what people use their marketing automation platform for, only 50% use it for email marketing. So I'm not sure quite what you do if you've got marketing automation platform, why there's all these people. And let's be honest, 43% of marketing automation users are actually sending email from a different system. The majority of people don't use their marketing automation platform for social media management. 60% don't use it for content management. And then, you know, if you look at paid ads, it's only about a third that is linking their marketing automation to their advertising campaign. So you look at all that and you think, wow, people really are not using the capabilities of the systems they've paid really good money for.
Hannah: Oh, no, absolutely. And I think there's an element of perhaps multiple automation platforms not doing the right marketing. So instead they're focused on, you know, migrate, look at us, we're all great. But maybe there should be a switch and a focus on the content of, are you using it to your full capabilities and look at all the cool stuff that we can do.
Mike: For sure. And I think, you know, let's prove we're not totally in to act on in this episode. One of the things HubSpot discovered very early on was their biggest problem selling marketing automation systems was the people who churned very quickly, who used it for a year and then gave up. And those were people who weren't using the system. So this is why HubSpot introduced all the onboarding that now typically all marketing automation systems have. But what we're seeing is actually people do this onboarding, they get trained up, they probably make quite good use of the system in the first year, but they kind of hit a ceiling and they don't get better. And actually I think, and this is a call out to all you marketing automation platforms out there, maybe you should be thinking about really focusing on growing the use of the platform. Personally, I love Sharpspring, which is, you know, the platform we use internally. They actually tell you how much you're using and how active you are. And it gives you a good idea of, you know, how well you're using the platform.
Hannah: Great point, Mike. Great point. Let's go back to HubSpot for a minute, because I think it's really important to say, you know, they were one of the first players on the market. And HubSpot have actually been listed as a top player in a market research study. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, for me, the interesting thing is that the market's huge. I mean, almost $7 billion in 2024. And yet it's going to grow by way more than inflation. And they're talking about 12.5% growth in this market. Clearly, market automation is still a place that businesses can make a lot of money and see a lot of growth. And there's still people out there who haven't bought market automation systems. What are you doing, guys? And they now are starting to look at it. So I think it's a really exciting market.
Hannah: I couldn't agree more. I think we spoke about this a bit last year, and the figures have just improved and they've just grown. And this moves on to another point that, you know, we've put up for discussion today. But do you think this growth is influenced by AI slightly with the market automation platforms?
Mike: Well, that's a great question. And we're starting to see more and more AI feed into marketing automation platforms. I don't know what you think. My gut feel is people are not buying marketing automation to access AI. There's AI everywhere. I mean, it's not a problem accessing AI. I think people are buying into marketing automation because of the potential of a marketing automation platform. Do you agree?
Hannah: I do agree. I think one of the things is the messaging might have changed. So AI talks about saving time for people. We both know, you know, that market automation does that. And I think I've seen a change, especially with the big players that use these market automation tools or integration. You know, we've talked about my favorite Einstein with Salesforce before, but they are pushing that. So it's that messaging of, yes, we've got AI, but also look at us, look at our systems. We save you time. It's efficiency. it's time-saving, it's making you more efficient. And I think there is a slight change in the AI messaging may have accelerated that. I don't know if you agree or not.
Mike: Yeah, or maybe it's just made it easier. I mean, it does definitely give the capability to introduce new features. And, you know, one of the other things we're talking about is the integration between Piper, which is effectively an AI business development rep, as they pitch it. So it's an AI tool to replace some of your nurturing. And they've integrated that with Marketo. And that seems to have generated a lot of interest, you know, in some ways, almost outside of the marketing press. And I was quite surprised to see how much enthusiasm there was for this story.
Hannah: See, I think this is where we always disagree, Mike, because although I was a little bit surprised, I think it makes sense to me. You know, we've seen how much coverage there has been about AI, these type of tools. And I think it's interesting to see how Marketo is actually using a third party tool rather than building something in internally. What do you think about that?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. That's fascinating, because as you mentioned, you know, we talked briefly about Salesforce and the fact that they're bringing a lot of AI into the platform themselves, which is interesting because us old guys, I mean, we remember Salesforce was initially promoted as a CRM in a platform. And the whole idea was people would build apps on top of Salesforce. And that really drove its initial adoption. And now, I mean, maybe I'm being wrong here. I get the feeling that Salesforce more and more wants to control more and more of the functionality, and it's becoming much less of a platform and much more of a standard product. What do you think?
Hannah: No, I do agree. And I think it would be interesting to see how Marketo compares. I mean, this news about Piper was released really recent, 18th of March. So I think it'd be interesting for us to come back to this maybe in a couple of months and see what the difference is and look into a bit more of why is Salesforce going down this route? Why is that better? But also what has happened to Marketo and actually are users preferring this sort of approach?
Mike: Yeah, and I think also the other thing to see is, you know, how many of us will actually be having conversations with either through email or actually voice conversations with AIs when it comes to the sales process. I think there's areas where that can work. And typically that's, you know, the lower value type purchases. But when you look at some, you know, really deeply involved, very high value B2B purchases, I wonder in reality how many companies are going to trust AIs to actually run that process, knowing that we still have problems with things like hallucinations.
Hannah: Oh, I think that's a great point, Mike. And I think that's something we definitely need to look at in the future. But just looking at time, let's move on to our insightful tip of the week. So I want to have a quick chat about when do you look to change the platforms within your MarTech stack? Now, we briefly mentioned earlier, you know, it's really time consuming, it costs a lot of money to change your market automation platform. and that isn't something that should be taken lightly. But when we're looking at the MarTech stack as a whole, when should you be looking to change and when should you be actually sticking with it and deciding that I'm gonna make this work?
Mike: That's a great question. I was on another podcast earlier this week. They asked me basically the same question, you know, do you lean into finding new technology or are you more about pushing it away? And I actually said, I'm a nerd, so I love new technology, a new shiny thing. I'm like Bolt, it's like Squirrel and I'm off and looking at the new shiny tool. So actually I try and stop myself doing it because generally speaking, there's a real risk of spending too much time churning through tools, updating the capabilities of your stack and then never using those capabilities. I mean, you use a lot of marketing automation, and you know, the more familiar you are with the platform, the better you're going to be at using it.
Hannah: Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I mean, we have a great team for biz dev here at Napier, and they use a variety of tools. And there's some that I'm more of an expert on some that they love and there's some that's non-negotiable. I mean, you know, we're coming up to a new financial year and we're like, you know, how are you getting on with this? And I think I would say about 80% of the tools that we've used, the team has been like, please don't take this from me. I absolutely love that and that is down to the fact that we really dedicate the time to training the team, understanding the platforms, we don't just as you said, might do a squirrel and go, oh, shiny new thing. You know, sometimes I have to say to you, do we really need this? And I think it's the value of understanding, okay, we're spending money on this. We've chosen this platform for a reason. We're going to do all we can in the next year to make sure that we're using it properly because you don't want to be in a situation where your subscriptions review and you go, oh, right, I had that. And I think that's actually the case for quite a few marketers.
Mike: I totally agree. I mean, sometimes tools come on the market. I remember when Descript started really being able to fully edit podcasts. It was so powerful that, you know, that was a tool that everybody wanted to switch to. But then you have other tools. I mean, you know, recently there's been a lot of tools around AI to pull clips from podcasts. And they're interesting and they do a pretty good job. but they don't necessarily always pull the right things. And so again, we're using some of those tools, but also we're still doing some stuff manually because sometimes the AI doesn't quite get what you're talking about. Either that or you and I aren't very good at explaining it.
Hannah: I think that's a great point, Mike, and we've started using Swell AI to help with our podcast, you know, pull descriptions, but we have Natasha out there doing a manual check, making sure everything makes sense. The tools have to be taken with, I guess what they say is a pinch of salt sometimes, to make sure you're still hitting that quality as well.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Swell, I think, is one of those tools that the team would not want to lose because it definitely helps write up the show notes. It's another great AI tool that works really well. But equally, I think, you know, sometimes these tools are not the magic bullet. And as you say, you do need to be involved with the tools. And that has a cost. You know, throwing more tools into your marketing stack has a learning and familiarization impact. that really is going to slow you down if you're not careful. So I think people need to think very carefully about switching tools. I think we're getting to the point where most tools are good enough. And if it's good enough, then maybe you don't want to jump to the latest and greatest tool that might have a little bit of a extra feature lead for the next couple of weeks. We should be a little bit more German, I guess. I mean, Germans are very, very into their processes and their workflow, and anything that disrupts the workflow is a really major change. So that's why they tend, culturally, to be really efficient at things, because they don't go around messing around with the tools they use and the way they work. Whereas I think in the UK, we're perhaps not as disciplined. And maybe learning a bit from the Germans might be a good thing to do.
Hannah: Well, I think that's the perfect statement to end the podcast on, Mike. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed being back in the game, having such an interesting conversation. And we'll be back soon for another one.
Mike: Absolutely. And if anybody is listening from Germany, hello from us as well.
Hannah: Thanks for listening to the Marketing Automation Moment podcast.
The Evolution of PR – James McCann – Everhaze
James McCann, CEO of Everhaze, an all-in-one PR platform, shares insights into the challenges PR professionals face today, particularly in proving ROI and managing media relations in a digital world.
He discusses how Everhaze aims to transform PR into actionable business intelligence, helping brands and agencies demonstrate the true value of their efforts.
James and Mike discuss on the role of AI in PR, the importance of building relationships with journalists, and the future of the industry as it adapts to new technologies
- Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
- Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
- Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com
About Everhaze
Everhaze is a PR business intelligence platform that turns media campaigns and mentions into actionable BI through real-time narrative tracking, messaging consistency scores, big data insights and AI PR Executives.
Solving the problem of scalability in PR, Everhaze helps clients across the UK & Ireland with in-depth media monitoring across print, broadcast and online, detailed media intelligence through its intuitive media database, automation of PR campaigns and real-time media insights to ensure its clients can fully realise their reputation protection and management capabilities.
About James McCann
James is CEO of Everhaze, an AI enabled PR business intelligence platform that provides real-time reputation impact tracking through combined data sourcing across media database, media monitoring and narrative analysis capabilities.
He previously established ClearStory International, an international PR agency in 2017 building a team of 15 and sourcing international clients from North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia. He currently serves on the AI in PR Advisory Council for the Public Relations Institute of Ireland and is also a board member on Oglaigh Naisiunta Na hEireann, Ireland's veteran charity. He was a former PR Campaign Manager for Web Summit. He was recently included in Business Plus Magazines 40 under 40 for PR professionals in Ireland.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: James McCann
00:02:09 - Overview of Everhaze
00:03:11 - Functionality of Everhaze
00:06:09 - The Pressure on PR Professionals
00:09:14 - Challenges of Media Monitoring
00:11:08 - AI's Role in PR
00:17:08 - Marketing Tactics for Everhaze
00:19:09 - Future of PR in the Next 3-5 Years
00:23:31 - Best PR Advice Received
00:24:06 - Advice for New Marketing Professionals
00:25:30 - How to Learn More About Everhaze
Quotes
"We're turning PR into actionable business intelligence for large-scale brands, for semi-states, for governments, for NGOs, and obviously for agencies and their clients." James McCann, CEO of Everhaze.
"The major issue when it comes to media relations right now, which is that journalists are under enormous pressure." James McCann, CEO of Everhaze.
"You need to continue to advocate for yourself and your value. Constantly demonstrate value." James McCann, CEO of Everhaze.
Follow James:
James McCann on LinkedIn: https://ie.linkedin.com/in/jamesmccann862
Everhaze’s website: https://everhaze.com/
Everhaze on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/everhaze/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547
Transcript: Interview with James McCann at Everhaze
Speakers: Mike Maynard, James McCann
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.
Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by James McCann, who's the CEO and founder of Everhaze. Welcome to the podcast, James.
James: Thanks very much, Mike, and look forward to kicking off.
Mike: Well, it's great to talk to you. I mean, let's kick off by finding a little bit about yourself. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about your career and also why you chose to create Everhaze.
James: Sure. So I suppose I started off, I suppose, in communications and public relations through politics initially. I was a local election candidate here in Ireland back in 2014 and segued into an Australian startup then as a campaign manager for them, which lasted for about six months. And then on to Europe's largest technology conference, which was WebSummit. So I was one of their PR managers and then PR operations managers. And then I set up my own PR agency for a number of years. And as part of that whole process, as you're kind of going through the day-to-day of PR operations, you're constantly looking to find ways where you can, say, save time or, you know, we explored all different tools on the market and the fragmentation that was out there already and, you know, trying to constantly prove value to clients then as part of that. And then when you're building a PR team, trying to keep track of you know, all of the inputs and outputs that are happening on a day-to-day basis. And a number of years ago, you know, we had an innovation voucher basically here in Ireland that we could take advantage of. We wanted to build an in-house tool for the agency. And then that just ballooned to becoming a whole different entity. And that's how Everhaze came to be.
Mike: So before we dig into Everhaves, I'm really interested, you know, you're based in Dublin, it's certainly an area which has seen a lot of, you know, creativity and startup activities. Do you think that's down to the support, the government support you mentioned, or what else do you think is driving, you know, so much success in Dublin?
James: Yeah, I think, you know, obviously Dublin and Ireland in the main, certainly, you know, down Cork and over in the West and go and Mayo, there's actually been massive investment in technology infrastructure, but also, you know, ecosystem development, right? Enterprise Ireland has obviously played a big role in that through the state, but there's been a whole positive ecosystem that's developed over the last 20 years where successful founders have reinvested through angel investments. And obviously you've got the big multinationals that have come in that have developed and brought a lot of tech talent here to Dublin that then wanted to spin out and do entrepreneurial activity. So Dublin is fast becoming not just a large-scale technology hub with the presence of Facebook, et cetera, but just a startup hub. I think we had our first Unicorn Tynes announced there a couple of weeks ago, and the future certainly looks bright for Ireland where I'm sitting on the tech side.
Mike: That sounds really cool, really exciting times for Ireland. Let's go and dig into the product you built now. So can you explain very briefly what EverHaze does?
James: Sure. So EverHaze is an AI PR platform that first of all consolidates your media database and media monitoring CRM functions. And effectively, we're turning PR into actionable business intelligence for large-scale brands, for semi-states, for governments, for NGOs, and obviously for agencies and their clients. And that's a big claim, right? So I think we've all struggled over the last number of decades, certainly since things have gone digital as opposed to print, in trying to prove ROI to our clients and trying to put some tangibles on the very intangibles that we do in our industry. And ultimately, yeah, that's what we're looking to do, is help brands and PR professionals put proper attributable value on what they do.
Mike: So you covered an awful lot there. And maybe we can break this down a little bit. I mean, the first thing is editorial databases, media databases. I mean, there are a lot of them around, they've been around for a long time. Did you see that as being core to the product? Or is that really an enabler for what the product does differently?
James: It's an enabler, you know, media database functions from a tech perspective, and this will become more the case. It has a very low barrier to entry, right? So it's data capture and then, you know, distribution function, and then your media database provider. Now, obviously, we've seen what's in the market at the moment, where there's AI functionality coming into us to help pure professionals hone in on particular germs, helping them with media lists and the research function. you know, that is absolutely needed because we've all been there where we're, you know, working with account executives or, you know, team members and we're trying to put together an accurate list, right? But it is only one piece of a wider puzzle that needs to be solved, right? Because we all know that the major issue when it comes to media relations right now, which is that journalists are under enormous pressure, newsrooms are under enormous pressure, and as a result, it's harder to prove a return for your clients, right? And I often see this debate around the spray and spray approach and kind of targeting kind of specific journalists for specific content is the way to go forward. I think there's a reverse to that, which is also true, which is that because journalists have such limited bandwidth, they have such limited ability to respond in a lot of cases. You're constantly vying for the retention, whether you have that relationship personally or not. And journalists are rightfully setting boundaries now around digital communications, WhatsApps and text messages and whatever else, because they are just so overwhelmed. So irregardless of the intelligence that you have, you need to be pitching good, relevant content and sometimes you need to be doing that at scale or certainly with accurate intelligence to help you capture that journalist's attention. So, as I say, I think media databases are one part of the puzzle, but you need a wider input, you know, for where the industry is going in order to deliver the value that you need.
Mike: And I mean, you mentioned the pressure on journalists. I think equally, there's a lot of pressure on PR pros as well. And this is really around the impact of what their coverage is generating. So it's not just, you know, today, it's not acceptable just to count the number of clips or column inches or fairly trivial measures. So I think this is one area wherever Hayes really tries to differentiate itself is by really analyzing what you get from the coverage. So can you talk a little bit about that?
James: Sure. I mean, obviously, there's different sizes and scales of campaigns, as we're aware of. On the upper end, you could have a client that's generating hundreds of mentions a day. You could have a one particular campaign, for example, that just goes gangbusters and generates, you know, 100 clips in a week, right? And to your point, you know, you can go off and you can get the number of articles and the estimated reach and the estimated views, all of which are relatively intangible. and go back to that client and say, look, this was the great work that we did. But from the client's perspective, and we often see this with CMOs in particular, their job is to go and to sell their success to their executive team. And if you do not equip them with the right insights, it becomes very hard to do. And oftentimes, us as PR pros, we will adopt whatever metric is there that we feel we can stand over, even though we're kind of squinching a little bit and we're saying, I wish I had something more tangible to show these guys. Because the whole technology landscape has changed, you know, even in the last two years with AI, but even before that, the amount of SaaS products that are now available on the commercial side of enterprises, everything from zero to your financial metrics, obviously there's Google Analytics, there's a whole host of social media tracking tools and all the rest of it, that it's quite possible now to link your business intelligence with your pure inputs and outputs. And that's really what we're looking to do. You know, every large brand is unique in how it measures success. It's not one size fits all. So you need to be able to provide a broad plethora of options so that you can sit opposite a client and we have one at the moment that we're going through a process with. whereby you're helping them understand as CMOs what their C-level team need to see, and then you're working with their business intelligence team to link up the required sources so that we can show on the PR end what the impact of a campaign is, positively or negatively, linking obviously key messages. And so up until quite recently, messaging was NLP related, right? So if there was a particular keyword that you were tracking, that would be reported as a tangible kind of win. But the wider context is missing from that. And the significance of that mention is also missed from us. So from a metrics perspective, or just from a reporting perspective, it's very hard to attribute value to that, other than the fact that that keyword got a mention. So we're going kind of a step beyond that then again, and we're tying all of what we're reporting back in to our enterprise clients BI.
Mike: That's interesting. I mean, one of the things that strikes me quite difficult is obviously you've got to monitor the media and there's a lot of media out there. So, I mean, does getting that media monitoring element of the tool, is that a complex thing to do or was that relatively straightforward to include?
James: Look, it's complex, right? And it's complex for a couple of reasons. You obviously have a multitude of different platforms. So you've got digital, you've got print, you have TV, you have radio. Radio is expensive to monitor, right? It's not that it's difficult to do technical, it's expensive. The digital side is very much, if you're building out your own technology like we are, it's just hard to get it refined. So technically, it requires a lot of time and effort. Print, as we well know, is very well licensed and its providers are rightfully protective of that. Print is also very expensive to secure that. And then TV just as much. And in a lot of cases, we've had to go kind of direct to TV providers for rights. between the licensing, the technology, and what we found with a lot of our competitors is that they've kind of skipped a lot of that, and they've gone directly to third parties for their technology infrastructure, which is all well and good, but it's quite restrictive then in terms of the capabilities you can roll out to your clients. So we've decided that we spent a long time before we launched in effectively January of this year, on the media monitoring side, we spent a long time investing in the technology and the infrastructure so that we can roll this out at scale. That's kind of what we've been focused on these past few years is making sure that when a client comes to us and say, okay, can you integrate with our systems X, Y, and Z so that you can show the comparatives or tie in with this metric or demonstrate how this particular narrative arc is going to impact on visitor numbers, for example, or whatever it might be. And we can tangibly work with them on that. without having to go back to a third party and say, oh, you know, would you be able to do X, Y and Z for us? So that's kind of what we've been positioning for.
Mike: That sounds great. I'm really interested because at the moment, one of the things that a lot of people are hyping, particularly with the CRM type products that are able to build relationships with journalists, is AI and building AI pitches for journalists. You seem much more restrained with your mentioning of AI. So what's your view about the importance of AI for PR pros?
James: Sure. Look, I seen a good quote there yesterday. I can't remember who said it, but basically every software technology company is going to be an AI company and that's just the truth of it, right? So it'll power background processes, it'll power insights, it'll power an awful lot of the day-to-day maybe automations that we want to kind of roll out. But I just think with respect to content, one of the most common faux pas obviously we're still seeing now around AI literacy is like American English being put out in press releases, right? And websites and content and blog content and so on. It's just very apparent, right? I also feel on the publisher side, there is going to be just a level of temptation to adopt AI to screen the noise, right? So pitches and relevant stories and so on. I think that's coming. But on the PR side, the drafting of the content, as we all know, is instinctual in a lot of times. It's ensuring not just that the content messaging is in there, but the paragraph structure, that your size and scale factors, your pedigree factors in there, whatever the kind of story that needs to be written. AI can't understand your intentions, right? And you can explain it, you can prompt as much as you want. But we just don't think Gen AI is going to be in the content writing space sufficiently enough that doesn't require the rework in order to distribute them to journalists. So we're making a bet instead that actually what PR people want is more like reducing admin around media coverage, logging, reports, writing and construction, media intelligence and research, and all of the kind of background hassle that comes with all of that. So like our CRM system, for example, on the agency side, you can track all of your client campaigns at an account director level or account manager level concurrently. And that just enables you at a snapshot to see where everything is at. And then you can make strategic high-level decisions on what has to happen next for each one of those clients or campaigns and work more proactively under less pressure with your account executive teams to deliver what you need. So, That's, I suppose, why we haven't leaned so much on the AI content piece yet. We just don't think it's there yet. And also, it's going to be interesting to see how the industry responds to the strategic element of kind of what AI brings. And I suppose what I mean by that you're not going to need account executives to do as much list building, right? That's a given. You'll be able to track your agency or your organization's personal relationships, in most cases, with journalists or outlets. You'll be able to see who's kind of positive, negative, you know, all of this intelligence. What you do need is still good instincts around content and editorial and, you know, relationships. And That is just not something that AI can do. And if you want to do it at scale, even at that, it's just harder to do without that human factor of context.
Mike: I love that. And I'll tell you why I love that. It's great because what you're doing is you're solving all the problems and challenges around the work that people hate in agencies. And you're doing the difficult grunt work rather than try and do the exciting work, which is building relationships with journalists. And I totally agree. I think certainly today, AI is not great at building those relationships, but people are. So I love that approach.
James: And look, you know, in my experience before this on the agency side, you'd come across CMOs that were just torn to pieces, right? Because, you know, the role of CMOs has just grown to an unbelievable extent and it's still going now, right? That PR oftentimes isn't their greatest strength and they might have a PR executive as part of the team or whatever it might be. And it's overwhelming. And it's not necessarily possible to roll out the kind of campaigns required now to capture attention, especially if you're like an emerging brand trying to crack into a new market. Just that attention seeking piece, you know, you haven't got the relationships, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It requires an awful lot of time, effort, creativity and just labour. 80% of your role could be just centred on the admin. That's just wild. So we're trying to solve that problem so that, again, and the way I look at this from a journalistic perspective, you know, journalists have just the same problem as PR people do, but in reverse, in that they need good stories to sell to their editors. And in order to ensure that they get that, sometimes they go with just their trusted sources. And what you start to see in the news landscape then is just almost like a monopolization of large brands in the news cycle the whole time. And we're trying to get to the point whereby if we can help pure people be more creative to pitch higher quality stories, even if that's at scale and journalists can kind of trust what they're getting from clients based on this editorial led approach, you're solving a problem for the journalists as well as just the agencies and the pure pros themselves.
Mike: Well, that's a really positive view on how you can help people. I'm intrigued to know, how's it going now? You mentioned you really launched at the start of this year. Who've you got as customers so far?
James: Yeah, so, I mean, I can't disclose too many. We have UPMC, which is a US multinational. That's probably all I can say publicly at this stage. One of our enterprise clients now, as I said, is quite a large organization. Their biggest challenge so far has been tracking the significance of their narrative publicly. So they're in a significant argument with government right around a particular issue, and they want to know who's winning the overall narrative publicly. It's around from their perspective, it's kind of the rate of fire, right? The amount of mentions of kind of positive and negative. And then they want to be able to go into their CEO and say, look, this is how we're winning public discourse in detail. This is what it looks like in terms of visitor numbers. This is what it looks like in terms of spend. This is what it looks like, you know, in various other different metrics. So that's at a very enterprise level. And we have quite a number now of kind of mid-sized companies as well. And I think what we're finding is We went to market earlier with the media database. It wasn't that great of a sell because there's so many of them. But now that you have this combination of both and the higher-level analytics, people save money on it, and that's been a big plus.
Mike: That sounds great. It sounds like you're really building momentum. So I'm interested to know, you've now got this problem that you've actually got to promote your own product. What are your marketing tactics? How are you building your customer base?
James: There's two approaches we're taking. I mean, one is iterative marketing, right? So, like, we're a bootstrapped company. We haven't raised any investment yet. So what we've been doing is taking small bits of advertising, 100 quid here, 100 quid there, looking at our core messaging, what's working, what's getting a better response rate. Typically, we're looking for kind of views around our tick-through rate. and then 0.5% and we're standing kind of scaling that up. And that's just purely market awareness because it's a very small population overall. We're like maybe targeting 25,000 people. So it's a highly targeted audience. And from that building up awareness and then I suppose the latter part of this year is just going to be focused purely on market education. So ensuring that the market knows that there is something in addition to just the monitoring and database side, that we do have this plethora of other core metrics that they can go off and maybe sell to their own kind of bosses. That's our approach. What I have always tried to do with any business that I've set up is prove that there's a product market fit and to do so with whatever shillings I have in my pocket. Like we haven't started to spend massively yet, but so far so good.
Mike: I think it's exciting and I love companies that are bootstrapped, you know, rather than taking as much money as possible and basically relying on having unlimited resources. So I think it's really laudable that you're building your momentum based upon the quality of the product rather than huge advertising budgets.
James: Yeah, look, we've seen us on the agency side, we used to work with a lot of early stage technology companies and kind of post COVID boom, right, so between 2020 and 2022, where venture capital was just flowing very freely. You make mistakes quickly, but they're really, really expensive mistakes. And if there's no follow on investment, everybody's kind of diddy goosed. So we're looking at a more pragmatic approach to building in the market, building trust, building awareness, all of the first principle stuff, really, you know. That sounds great.
Mike: Moving forward, I'm interested to know, you know, you see a lot about what's happening with PR. You're obviously working with quite a number of your customers who are looking at the changes in the world of PR. Other than obviously EverHey saving us all from a lot of admin work, what do you see as the biggest changes for PR process going to happen over maybe the next three to five years?
James: I suppose this is kind of the holy grail for where we're going. Ultimately, I think in my head is AI, PR, account executives. And I know that sounds kind of, you know, if you're collecting all of this data, all of your distribution, your relationships, the content conversions, your messaging conversions, you're doing so historically, you're doing so across, you know, 30, 40, 50 clients, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All of that is interrogatable and all of that can be used to learn in a particular way for each individual customer and client. And It's not there yet. It's going to take another three to five years, exactly your timeline there. But I can see a world where you can jump on a platform, hopefully ours, and you'd be able to ask your AI account executive to build your lists to advise you on who engages with your content the most at a particular time, ask them to send a prompt to a particular journalist to remind them about a certain thing, ask them to produce you a report around the most positive articles that have been produced for a particular client. All of those things can just be asked with a prompt and converted quite quickly. I think that's the game changer. having just an instant assistant to execute these tasks. I remember years ago, I worked for an insurance company before I moved into PR and we were kind of shifting from print to digital, right? And obviously the PR industry went through this transition and the massive changes in workflow and also massive resistance to it in a lot of cases as well, right? And the learning curve that came with this was significant. But if you don't upskill to a higher level, you risk redundancy. And I genuinely think the next three to five years, we're in that period, right? It's not just a buzz. It is a very tangible thing that is going to change how we work and all of that over the next couple of years. And the last thing I'd say on it is, It's not that the value of what, like we're just eliminating a lot of the bottom tier admin work so that people can go on to spend more time thinking, strategizing, creating. And it will give rise to other segments of the market that we haven't even thought of yet. So that's kind of what I'm excited by is We have an opportunity now within the industry to think a little bit differently, and it's going to challenge us to push ourselves. We have to follow the publishers as well, right? It could be the case now that publishing is going to become video. Like, I mean, we're looking at it already where the Daily Mail pushes out a lot of its content over TikTok and Sky News, etc. Newspapers will probably go that route to a degree as well. Is every publisher going to become a multi-channel publisher, having to produce all of its content? Because it'll be scalable in about three to five years time. What does that mean for PR professionals and how we then generate content? We're just talking about media relations here right now, but there's a whole other industry that's going to emerge from this over the next kind of three to five years, again, that we haven't thought of, and it's just trying to get ready for that.
Mike: That sounds very positive because it sounds like you have a view of there still being a lot of demand for PR professionals, even with the assistance that AI can bring.
James: And look, this is just an old story that I like to say, old story is an ancient story. But in Dublin, the mansion house, the mayor's residence here had a cable to the Freeman's Journal in O'Connolly Street. and that was the first wireless to be put in to communicate news from the mayor's office directly to the Freeman's Journal. My great-granddad was the runner in the 1890s for that route and obviously he got made redundant and, you know, and he went into the print room then and obviously kind of things changed but This has always happened. Technology has always driven change and skill changes and disruption in the labour market. I think we just need to keep an eye on what the potential is, as opposed to protecting our patches right now, because it's not going to be defensible in the long run.
Mike: I love it. I think that's a great way to summarize where PR is going. You've been really generous with your time, James, but we'd like to ask a couple of quick questions of everybody just to really dig down and get some advice. So from your point of view, what's the best ever PR or marketing advice you've ever been given?
James: Best PR or marketing advice? Do you know, it's funny, I was thinking about this. I don't know if you've seen We Crashed, the documentary about Adam Neumann and WeWork and his kind of adage of, it's not who you see, it's who sees you. Like right now in the world that we're in, being front of mind and competing for everybody's attention is literally the name of the game. So yeah.
Mike: That's great advice. And then my next question is, and I think this is going to be perhaps challenging for people in the near future with AI potentially taking away entry-level jobs. What would your advice be to someone who's about to start a career in marketing? What should they do?
James: You know, I think for anybody starting off, a lot of the theory that you're probably going to come across in college, start immersing yourself in, I suppose, the tradecraft of the industry now. Obviously, you have to learn the basics and understand the significance of, you know, accuracy and editorial and writing. I think those are critical skills. Critical thinking is going to be huge, I think, for the next generation of PR professionals and marketing professionals. One thing that I would say is for those in marketing, those in PR, continue to advocate for what you do. I think it's becoming harder and harder to demonstrate the value of what we do. It's taken for granted a lot of times. It's not seen as a need to have. It's seen as a nice to have. And I think we have to advocate on behalf of ourselves and the industry as much as possible. again for the next five years to demonstrate value. We're looking at kind of what's known as a go-to-market engineer, GTM engineer, which is basically an automated CMO that will run all of the various campaigns from one centralised location, which, fair enough, there's a potential for that. It's not going to be tangible for everyone. And I just know from a CEO perspective, it's going to be a temptation to say, look, we can consolidate your positions, we can consolidate your roles, we can consolidate this and that. And burnout is obviously massive in the industry already. You need to continue to advocate for yourself and your value. Constantly demonstrate value.
Mike: That's great advice. Great way to end it. People who've listened to you, if they're interested in Everhazen and want to find out more about the products and maybe try it, what's the best way to do that?
James: Sure, anyone can book a demo at www.everhaze.com, or if they want to send me a direct email, they can get me at james.everhaze.com.
Mike: That's awesome. James, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.
James: My pleasure, Mike. Thank you so much.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
A Napier Webinar: The Impact of AI on SEO and Search Advertising
Register for Napier's on-demand webinar and discover how generative AI is affecting marketers as it impacts SEO and search advertising tactics. We will cover:
- How Generative AI is changing search
- The impact on SEO
- How is search advertising changing?
- How might your website traffic change?
- Five things to do now to manage the impact of AI
Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.
Napier Webinar: ‘The Impact of AI on SEO and Search Advertising’ Transcript
Speakers: Mike Maynard
Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to our latest webinar.
Today we're going to be talking about the impact of AI on SEO and search advertising.
So particularly, we're going to look at generative AI in search results pages.
So what I'm going to do is I'll get started, and we'll start talking about this important topic.
So why are we doing this? Well, it's pretty simple. I mean, other than the opportunity for me to use AI to generate some crazy robot characters, really, it's about stopping the robots eating your SEO and SEM lunch. So one of the big concerns that a lot of people have is as generative AI starts dominating the results on search, the question is, what's going to happen to my website traffic? Am I going to lose all my traffic? Are people going to stop going to the site? Am I even going to appear? So this is a very valid concern, and it's something we'll talk about today without wishing to spoil the whole webinar and cut to the end, I will say this is a rapidly changing situation. So whilst I can talk about what's happening today and what to do, there isn't any firm answer as to what's going to be working in a year's time, because, frankly, I don't think even Google knows what its search results page is going to look like in a year's time.
Anyway, let's have a look at what we're going to talk about today.
So I'm going to start off by talking about how generative AI is changing search I suspect pretty much all of you understand that, but I think it's important to get onto the same page. We look at the impact on SEO and also advertising. And I think advertising is something that is often underrated as being impacted by these generative AI search results.
We'll look at what's happening with website traffic and how it's likely to change, particularly how it's likely to change in the near future.
And then lastly, we've got five suggestions of things to do to manage the impact of AI.
So lets look at a typical search. So choose a microcontroller. So this is one for our semiconductor audience here.
So it's quite an informational query, and you'll notice that I'm tending to use informational queries. This is not because informational queries are the only things that produce generative AI results, but at the moment, you're much more likely to get a generative AI result when you're asking a question that needs to be answered with lots of information, rather than a simple search that is much more transactional.
So if I run this search, and this is what I did when preparing the webinar, this is what I get as the results, and I think it's really interesting to understand what happens as we go down the page. Now this is particularly chosen as a page that doesn't have a lot of ads against it. In fact, there's no paid results on this particular results page. Doesn't mean people aren't advertising against terms like microcontroller. It just means I've managed to find a search where we didn't get ads to confuse the situation.
So the first thing we'll see is, right at the top, we've got the generative AI result. This is the text that Google's AI Gemini has generated to try and answer the question.
It's been generated using certain sources, and you can see here there's references. So if you want to be in the top part of the page, you've got to be one of the websites that's referenced by this generative AI result, and you've got to be referenced early on it in that generative article, because what we've seen.
Now is that Reddit is next. That's not that unusual. Reddit is certainly seems to be the current website of choice for getting really good ranking. At the moment, not sure that's always going to be the case. You get the people also asked, and then finally, you get the first website results. So this is, you know, right down at the bottom of the page. Now, I mean, almost off the page before we get a result from a website, from somebody that's trying to promote or sell microcontrollers. In this case, it's a distributor.
And so, as I mentioned, no adverts are shown. If they were we'd actually see everything pushed down.
Now what we can do is we can click on the Show More section of the AI overview. I'm sure you've seen this, and what we'll see is we'll see a much longer answer from Google, an answer that, in fact, is covering the whole page. So we've now wiped out all search results, and all we've got is the references. And you can see there's a lot of references that are on this page, so it is quite important to remember that references do matter. That's what we're trying to achieve when we're trying to deal with the impact. However, if you caught the previous top search result. It's interesting that although tme was the top search result, it doesn't get quoted in the references. So this is the first thing to recognize, is that actually the generative AI results and the pure search engine result pages results, they are going to be different, and you may need to do different things to appear in the generative AI summary than you do to appear in anything else. So in the results below it, it's also important to notice that there's not just these generative AI summaries. So there's AI shopping as local results, travel results, informational results.
So AI is going to produce a lot of results on Google, and increasingly, it's going to produce more and more results on Google. Google has actually experimented with 100% generative AI results pages. So it's clear that Google is looking at what delivers the answer that the searchers want.
Now the big problem we have with this is that although there's lots of references compared to a Google search results page, there's actually not that many, because each of these references apply to a particular section of the of the generative result, and we've basically only got this one page, so although we might get 10 references, we haven't got page two, which is 11 to 20, page three, etc. So it's really important to recognize that this is very much a winner takes all game. If you get into generative search results, you are going to be beating a lot of your competitors.
But before we talk too much about how to get into those results, I think one of the important things to say is that appearing in Gen AI results, it's what's called Zero click SEO. So Rand Fishkin, well known in the essay SEO community, he came up with the term of zero click SEO. And here what you're trying to do is get an impression. You're trying to show yourself ahead of anybody else. So you're trying to show yourself an ingenerative ai results. You're not necessarily trying to get a click. Now, of course, we'd love it if people look at the references click through to our website and then read our website. That's fantastic. But the reality is that's not the behavior of most people who are doing searches. So most people will read the Gen AI result, and your goal is to get your opinion, your point of view, and also reference to your product into those results. It's not necessarily going to drive traffic to your website, and that makes measurement really, really hard. You're not going to necessarily see traffic in the same way as you did from your standard SEO campaigns.
However, it's not completely new, and RAM fish can actually introduce the zero click SEO term back in 2019, so this is best part of six years ago, when some research he shared showed that actually the majority of Google searches don't produce a click. So even today, you're being shown in Google search results, and it's more than likely there's not going to be a click to anybody, not just to you, but to anybody, from that Google search result. So more and more we are going to have to think about generating SEO and measuring it in a different way, purely from traffic.
So I mentioned informational queries. And you know, one of the things that certainly is the case is that disproportionately.
Gen AI results appear for informational queries. They do for more transactional ones. So it's okay, because AI is not going to tell you what to buy, or maybe they will. Let's ask which high performance ARM based microcontroller offers the best price performance.
And here you can see AI is certainly not at all shy at telling you what to buy. AI is recommending the STM 32 h5 and the Renaissance ra series as being best price performance. Now this is interesting, because actually, if you go through and analyze this, it's really not telling you why these two products here are actually the best price performance, and in fact, it's been created much more from an SEO type approach, in terms of linking words around price performance on the same page next to these products than it is necessarily from a technical analysis. So it's super important to remember that we've had two product families that have ranked in the Gen AI for the best price performance. But that's not necessarily driven in any way by their price performance. It's driven by what's said on the page about price performance, and therefore Gen AI has linked these two products to good price performance.
So this is a real problem. I mean, it's no different in many ways to when we looked at Search Engine Optimization, in the good old days, we didn't have to worry about Gen AI, where if you did do this query, you would get different products being listed in an order that doesn't necessarily represent their price performance. And here you can see, for example, the ST product that is mentioned is actually the number one search result. So again, this is a search engine optimization challenge. It's not AI providing analysis that really tells you which is the best price performance products.
So what's the problem? I mean, basically, there's a ranking of results, and that's being done by Google, but it's also being done by these generative AI tools like Gemini.
That's always been the case, that's not changed. But the issue is these generative AI answers, they're quite detailed, they provide a lot of information, and there's much more of a risk that people won't read further than the generative AI and you're putting fewer options into that generative AI summary. So the generative AI result being in it matters a lot, because people are less likely to look at your position in the search results page.
And, you know, they're much more likely to pick something from Gen AI.
Of course, some people use chat bots. And you know, just to let you know, here, I've done Google for I've used Google for the search and therefore Gemini and I'm using chat GPT as an example of a chat bot. What I'm saying here applies across all sorts of AI engines. So whether that's Bing, which actually is fundamentally, you know, driven from chat GPT, GPT, whether it's perplexity, which a lot of people are using for search, or whether it's something like Claude. So all of what this what this webinar covers, applies across the range to different AI models.
So I'm going to ask chatgpt, which high performance ARM based microcontrollers offer the best price performance. Let's try the same question. I But before we get carried away, let's not think that everybody's doing this. So I talked to oops, I talked to a lot of people who say, I use chat GPT. Everyone uses that. Actually, it's not the case. Google Search grew 20% in 2024 and actually, Google Search receives almost 400 times more searches than chat GPT.
So if we look at what's happening, yes, some people are querying chat bots, but actually not everybody is. So whilst we're looking at this, let's not get too freaked out by chat bots, because it currently it's nowhere near the majority of traffic or the majority of questions on the internet. Okay. Now, with that caveat in place, let's have a look at what chat GPT tells us about the best price performance micro controllers.
Well, st, Mike, electrons have done a very good job, because again, that lovely 32 h5 series is ranked as one of the best price performance, again, not through any analysis of price performance at all. This is based upon effectively linking words together, so a kind of SEO type approach. Interestingly, the Renaissance product didn't make it onto the chat GPT summary.
We see a number of other products here that didn't make it onto the Gemini summary. So there's a definite lack of consistency. We're actually seeing quite different results. The other thing as well, I'm sure you guys all know this, but if you don't, it's important to remember that actually there's a level of randomness in terms of the results that any AI engine produces. So an amount of randomness is introduced. It stops the answers always being the same, and it means that sometimes an AI engine will recommend a different product, rather than always recommending the same one. So even though I've seen these through a couple of my searches, it's very likely you'll go and try and replicate this, and you may see different recommendations, either from Gemini or chat GPT, and almost certainly will see something slightly different from something like perplexity.
So it's a similar sort of thing driven by, you know, the concept of content and people describing products as being certain things.
But the question is, now, you know, how important are these chat bots?
Well, there's not much evidence. I mean, we can see here. So the Google trends analysis of my controller, it kind of backs up the research we looked at from Spark Toro that said that actually the number of searches is growing, so even in an engineering environment where people are probably leading edge much more willing to experiment with technology, we're actually seeing Google, the legacy technology, growing and expanding market share.
So the good thing is, we don't have to worry about this too much at the moment, but I do think we have to worry about the Gen AI results on the search engine results pages.
So let's go back to search engine optimization.
You've got to appear in these Gen AI results. It's really important, as I say, it's very much a winner takes all situation. But you also need to appear in standard search results, partly because some people are going to scroll past the Gen AI. And recently, there's been some research I saw which actually said that engineers are becoming less willing to trust AI generated results and much more keen on looking at results that are human generated. They trust them more. So you know, the standard search results still matter, and AI impacts ads too, but in a slightly different way. What AI is doing is pushing the ads down the page.
So here we go. We've got another query. We're talking about variable speed motor drives, or variable frequency motor drives. We've done a search. The AI view sits at the top, and then the ads are below. Now this is going to have an impact, because previously, prior to Gen AI, those ads would sit right at the top of the results. So we are going to see lower click through rates for these ads than we would have seen previously without Gen AI, and that's just highlighting it there.
And obviously, just as we do with organic search results, if we click the expand, the ads disappear off the bottom of the page. So again, you know, if people start engaging with these generative AI results, we're going to see fewer and fewer clicks on our paid ads on Google as well.
So there's less we can do about this, because we can't get those paid ads at the moment into the Gen AI results, but it's certainly something to consider going forward.
So what's going to happen to your web traffic? Well, I mean, one of the concerns is all this generative AI that basically it's going off the edge of a cliff pushed by the AI robots.
So that is a real concern, but I don't think it's really this bad. So let's have a look at a different search. This is an interesting search. It's about a topic called mental availability.
Napier actually ranks pretty consistently top for a search on mental availability.
As you can see here, though, we've been pushed out by the AI search result, although the a search result does reference Napier.
The good thing as well is, you know, we're here number one in the organic search results, and we've actually beaten the erenberg bass Institute, which was really the people who originated the concept of mental availability. So it's really good that we're ranking high, and that has obviously helped us rank high in mental availability, but what's this done to our traffic? So let's have a look at how much traffic is driven to the Napier website based on the search for mental availability.
And here's the traffic by month, looking back over almost a year.
And a half, and you can see it's pretty random. It's jumping up and down. You might be able to argue that there's some seasonality there, but it's really quite hard to see.
But what you see is that when Google started testing what the time they called the search generator experience, we had a low month, then we had a high month, then they released it from beta. We had a high month that month, but the following month was low, and then we had it in the UK, and it was low, but the next month was high. So it was all a mess. So what can we do? It's very difficult to understand this. I mean, we want to beat the bots, but, you know, are there strategies we can adopt that are going to make sense. They're not going to harm our organic search results, but they're going to help us with generative. Ai, well, I think they, there are. I mean, the first thing I'd say is, really just keep calm. A lot of people have freaked out over Gen. AI, actually, the reality is, as we've seen with a lot of these results, if you've got good SEO today that's going to impact your generative AI results. It's going to help, because what you're doing that appeals to Google in terms of ranking you on the organic search results pages is also going to be something that causes you to be ranked higher or more likely to be included rather in generative AI results.
So you can't do a lot about Google ads. Your Google ads are probably going to reduce performance. The most important thing is to become about that and understand that as generative AI pushes Google Ads down, maybe you'll see a slight drop in click through rate. Make sure you're not making decisions about ads, assuming the ads are poor simply because they're being pushed down by Gen AI. So really understand what's going on and don't panic.
Secondly, I would say it's really important to understand whether you show up in AI results, and you can obviously do that to a large extent by looking at Gen AI search results pages and chat bots, understanding where you don't show up and understanding why you don't show up, so why others are preferred to you.
But you can also use tools, and there are a couple of tools shown here, so one is profound. The other is otterly. And we can do something like, you know, ask otterly what happens if we put this prompt into different AI engines, and otterly will give you a result. So it's a paid service that will actually tell you whether you rank in Gen AI results for particular queries. So that is a really useful tool to understand whether you're appearing in Gen AI, or whether you're being excluded, there are lots of other tools as well, and a lot of the SEO tools are more and more beginning to add these Gen AI visibility tools. So it's becoming a much more commonplace thing to use.
So those are two things we do to really, you know, firstly, establish there's not a need to dramatically change what we're doing. Secondly, we need to understand the situation.
The first real thing we could do is start writing answers to questions people ask AI. So I'm sure you've all experienced AI. AI is a very different experience, particularly the chat bots, where people try to engage and ask questions, it becomes quite conversational. And so the best approach that you know, people seem to believe today is to add FAQs or questions and answers onto a range of key pages on your website. And what that's doing is it's putting content that's conversational, that can be very easily ingested by a an AI model, and you're putting it on an important page, so therefore they'd be fairly highly ranked. You get some authority there, and hopefully also people will take them and maybe replicate some of those questions as well.
There is also the ability to do some technical optimization called schema markup, which is basically a tool to tell systems that you have a Q and A on your page or an FAQ on your page. It's important to note that there's no real evidence that any of the AI models are really looking at that schema markup today, but it's generally felt that would be something that would help AI models get better answers for people, and it's felt it's really likely that more and more schema will be used by AI models today, it's much more the content on the page, so that's probably not something that's going to make a huge difference to you the next thing is to appear on authoritative websites, and authority is important. It's important for Google. We all know about that. We've all heard about authority and links and how they rank websites. But actually it's important for chatgpt as well, and very crudely, if you want to.
On authoritative websites, news sites and directories tend to be ranked pretty highly. Even those directories you hate and you think are really low quality tend to get a reasonably high ranking. So making sure you've got a very solid PR program and you're also actively listing yourself in directories is really important.
The other thing that does seem to rank very well, and there's been lots of discussion around, you know, Reddit and Quora and other Q and A sites, over whether the AI companies can take their content or whether they need to pay for them. But it's clear the AI content, the AI companies, so the open AIS and
other companies. They all value these Q and A websites. That's very good content. It gets ingested well into the models, and it produces good answers. So they are, in some cases, paying, but they're definitely looking at things like Reddit and Quora, and it's important to have some presence on there as well.
And then lastly, and this is probably most important, is to have a Wikipedia strategy.
So you know this, this is really interesting, but without doubt, Wikipedia is something that is used by the Gen AI companies, and it's used differently to the internet as a whole. So if you look at, you know how open a AI reported that they trained their models, they'll talk about using Wikipedia and the internet. Well, Wikipedia is obviously part of the internet, so they're separating out Wikipedia, and they're actually making Wikipedia more important than the typical page on the web. So you really, really, really need to have a great Wikipedia strategy.
This is interesting. So we're back on variable frequency drives, and this is a Wikipedia article about variable frequency drives, and the Wikipedia article talks about Stromberg as being the company that invented the technology. And if we go to Stromberg here, we can see that there's an article that ultimately says Stromberg is part of ABB. So ABB ultimately acquired Stromberg. That's one of the reasons why ABB is such a strong supplier of this technology. But you can see, it's not a super highly ranked page. You know, it's got some notifications that the page needs more references. So really, if you want to rank high and you want to link ABB closely to variable speed drives, there's some things you can do in terms of tweaking Wikipedia to make Wikipedia reflect that ABB is the owner of Stromberg, put in more references, improve the ranking, and possibly put a mention of ABB onto the variable frequency drive page. Now, having said all that, it's incredibly important to rank on Wikipedia and to have content on Wikipedia. It's also incredibly easy to fall foul of the very arcane and obtuse Wikipedia rules. So if you don't understand Wikipedia, please, please, please don't sign up, get an account and start editing and particularly, don't start editing content that directly relates to you. There are real strong rules and restrictions around Wikipedia. So please make sure you talk to someone who knows about Wikipedia and understands what can and can't be done.
So thank you very much. If anyone has any questions you know, please feel free to put them into the chat.
I'll just summarize. So the first thing I'd say is don't panic, and hopefully there's a few geeks on here that understand the link between Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and don't panic. I would say definitely keep an eye on the robots and monitor the impact of AI. Focus on quality. And I think this is really important. Increasingly, it's clear that there are definite moves from the AI companies to make sure that they're ingesting content that they view as high quality. Wikipedia is a great example of what they rank as very high quality. So focus on that. Remember, other websites are as important as your own when it comes to appearing on generative AI, this, again, is a zero click play for most of the time. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to get content about you into the generative AI answers. If that content comes from the Wall Street Journal rather than from your own website, that's fine.
Definitely create content that helps the AI, you know, let's try and work together produce content that's going to rank very well. And finally, make sure you ask experts. And I think I will go back and talk about Wikipedia. It's very easy to fall foul of the rules on Wikipedia, and you really don't want to do that.
So thank you for listening.
Hope this has been interesting. I hope it's been helpful. As I say, there's no immediate easy answer as to, how do you change your strategy for optimizing for generative AI results, but there's a lot you can do to give yourself a much better chance of appearing in those results, and certainly, if you're monitoring what you do, you can really learn as to what works for your brand.
We obviously keep these webinars going as a fairly frequent sequence.
The next one is going to be at the end of April, Tuesday, the 29th of April, same time,
although probably one hour different for people in the US. And what we're going to do is we're actually going to demonstrate some integrations of AI into marketing campaigns. So rather than talk on a more theoretical level, this is going to be very practical, and we're going to show how AI can be used to really help and improve your campaigns. So I strongly recommend attending this. I think it'll be a fun webinar, and hopefully we can potentially do some live demos, and they won't go horribly wrong.
Okay, I hope you found this useful.
What I'm going to do now is switch over to questions. So if you have any questions, feel free to post questions into the chat or into the Q and A, and I'll just give Everyone a couple of minutes just to post questions you.
I've got a good question here from someone, and they're asking, is there a way that you can understand the algorithm used to decide which content is put into generative AI results, and that's a great question.
The answer is very simple. There's actually not an algorithm as such to decide that. So if we look at Google, when it ranks pages, Google has a definitive algorithm and that's related to all sorts of things. It's related to the content, it's related to the number of links, it's related to the freshness of the content, all sorts of things will cause your page to be ranked higher when we look at generative AI what we're doing is we're training an AI model. And an AI model fundamentally works by effectively deciding what's the most likely next word. And anyone who's an engineer, please, don't freak out, because that is a gross oversimplification. So it builds up and effectively compresses as much data as it can into its model, and then it tries to work out the next word, so what's most likely. And so there's not really an algorithm. And in fact, you know, understanding how AIS work and why they produce certain results. It's a subject of massive research. People have not got to that point anyway. So there really is no magic answer to this. There really is nothing that says if you do this, then you'll appear in generative AI results. So it is a case of doing all the right things and then, to some extent, hoping that generative AI will produce you as the answer, as the reference, and as I say, also, generative AI does introduce some randomness. So if you ask AI the same question, it will quite often produce a slightly different answer, sometimes choose a very different answer.
And that means that even from answer to answer, you can't predict whether you're going to be in there. So it is a case of the fact that there's an element of randomness, and that is something that we can't overcome. So today, it's very much a case of trial and error, and that's why monitoring is so so important. If you put some effort into trying to appear into generative AI search results, it's then very important to measure to see whether that had any impact or not, so the monitoring tools are key.
Okay, I haven't seen any other questions, so hopefully this means that the webinar was clear and you all enjoyed it. If you get a chance when you finish, please do complete the feedback form, and if anyone has any further questions or would like to talk about how you know their organization can appear in Gen AI search results, please feel free to contact me. My contact details are there. You can email me directly. Mike at napierbe to be.com thank you very much for attending. I hope you found it useful, and I hope to see you on the 29th of April for our next webinar. Bye.