We are delighted to share the latest interview from Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast.

In our latest episode, Mike, Managing Director of Napier, interviews Chris Dickey, PR veteran, founder and CEO of Visably, a new SaaS start-up. Chris shares his insights into the strategy of Search Engine Visibility, and how he helps his clients maximise the likelihood of discovery on the first page via brand visibility, media and leveraging other people’s websites.

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Transcript: Interview with Chris Dickey – Visably

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Chris Dickey

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing B2B tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I’ve got Chris Dickey from visibly as my guest. Welcome to the podcast, Chris.

Chris: Thanks for having me, Mike.

Mike: So I’m Chris, you used to be in PR, and now you’re actually moving into developing search engine optimization software. So that sounds like a big change to me.

Chris: Yeah, it absolutely has, no question. I can tell you in all honesty, I’d never in my wildest dreams thought I would be a tech entrepreneur. But here I am. I know for the last 17 years I’ve been a PR professional, mostly working in agencies. The last 11 years I’ve been managing operating my own agency called purple orange brand communications. We’re located in the Rocky Mountain West in the United States. We recognised several years ago that are, that are the most influential PR heads that we could acquire for our clients were the ones that were showing up at the top of search results. In this was happening by and large, just it was just fortuitous. We there was no strategy behind it at the time.

But you know, just to compare and contrast, we at the same time, we were still winning kind of the big national splashy PR awards and PR mentions in major United States publications. And what we what we saw was the most productive hits the hits that our clients would kind of come back to us on and say, hey, what’s going on here, or we saw this massive uptick in our website and tonnes of sales coming to this, you know, this one PR hit? It was always the hits that were showing up the top of search. And the funny thing is, is it wasn’t the media outlets that you would typically expect it was, you know, the most kind of I think crystallising moment for me was we went out we won this huge award from a huge national publication for one of our clients. And it was kind of the pinnacle award in its category for the entire year. And we kind of checked back with the client after a few months on that particular product launch and we said hey, you know, how’s it going tell us how like your sales are coming along. And they’re like, it’s it’s pretty mediocre, it really hasn’t picked up a whole lot. And I was kind of like scratching my head and thinking Gosh, like we won what was like the pinnacle award in the in the, in the space for this one client in having kind of huge reach extensively in what’s going on. So I just happened to kind of open up my browser and I typed in the words best sleeping bag 2017, which was what we were marketing, a sleeping bag launch was for an outdoor brand. And sure enough, the endorsement or the award from this particular publication was showing up on the second page of search. And on the first page of search was a bunch of stuff that we hadn’t worked on, or we hadn’t really focused on. In at that moment, I realised my God, that’s what’s going on like the if the if the PR hit that we acquire does not live beyond the flicker of the moment that it’s published, it has incredibly limited value for our audience, or for our clients. And, you know, think about the customer journey from the point where you know, you’re looking for a sleeping bag to buy and you don’t know where to start, I would say 95% of us are going to start with search, at least from the perspective of just some top line research. And that’s where the customer comes is search in within the search engine landscape, you have a very predictable click-through rate, it starts very, very high at the top of the organic results, something like 30% for the very first organic result. And then it drops down to nearly 1% at the bottom of the first page. It’s only 10 results there. And then there’s almost no traffic on the second page to search. And so when you look when you step back and you look at it, there’s 70% of all the clicks for any given keyword are going to land within the first five organic results, which is very limited amount of real estate to make a splash or have an impact with the customer. And when you and you know I think from a marketers perspective, you have to think about what are all the different ways that I can create brand visibility within this top very kind of elite tier of a websites and search in it. could be your own website, there’s a, there’s a there’s this, there’s a potential however small for you to rank your own website within that top five organic results. More likely, however it might be through a media hit, it might be through a result, you know a review that you’ve set up as a PR practitioner, it might be one of your e commerce partners that is that has featured you on their landing page is one of the recommended products, but they’re, you know, thing that someone’s looking for. It might be an advertisement, you know, so there’s all these potential touchpoints. And that’s, that’s what I call search engine visibility, how do you maximise the likelihood of discovery on the first page of search?

Mike: So that’s pretty interesting, because what you’re actually saying is, unlike conventional SEO, which aims to improve the ranking of your own website, what you’re trying to do is surface other websites where your products could appear, and then be at the top of particular Google search results.

Chris: I think I think it’s the whole thing, you know, in all, in an aggregate, if you will, but yes, like, I think there’s a huge underleveraged opportunity, leveraging other people’s websites, other people’s domain authorities, and this is publishing, right? Like, this is what we do with publishing, this is why we, as PR practitioners go out and we work with publishers, because they have a bigger voice than us, they have a bigger audience than us, they have a more influential website than us, we’re going to use their platform to tell our story. And that’s, that’s a huge industry right there. It’s, it’s kind of crazy that people haven’t taken that jump from the PR industry of leveraging this, this these third party platforms, and looked at it through the lens of search, which is where customers actually start a lot of their product journeys. So you know, do you go to your favourite, you know, I don’t know, magazine website, when you want to go buy like a new gadget? No, you probably start on search. And if you’re, if that if that trusted media source happens to be there are another one that you recognise, you’ll, you’re more likely to click on it, and see what they have to say about it. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that that that, that very specific customer who’s looking for the widget that you have to sell, they almost always start their journey on search.

Mike: Interesting. So you’re almost ranking, if you like the publications you’re targeting, by their performance in certain search results.

Chris: We absolutely are. And this and my agency has been doing this for several years now. And so this kind of, you know, inter visibly, which is this company that like I this software company that I have been working on for the last year and a half. So the idea that we decided to start essentially building media lists based on Google search results, Google does a fantastic job of elevating the most relevant media or journalism or content at any given subject. Right. And, and not only are they elevating the most relevant publications, but also the writers and the people who are covering these different beats. I think the one of the biggest challenges for any PR team is identify who are the right people to talk to, when it comes to our media rage, like who’s writing about this subject. And so, you know, here, here, we have a very sophisticated search engine, elevating the best content the world and there’s no way to really mine that data, there’s really no way to kind of pull that out. I said, I’m doing it manually. And that’s what we were doing as an agency. So we were actually identifying these keywords that we felt were very high likelihood to be used by our clients, customers to find their products or brands, non branded keywords, if you will. So what we’re interested in is people not people who are typing in the name of their branding keyword in Google search, but people who are typing in product characteristics, so say like, like I said, best sleeping bag, instead of saying Beth, North base sleeping bag or something like that. It’s it’s really somebody who is not brand loyal, who’s looking for recommendations. And that’s, that’s the ideal customer that we’re trying to get in front of here. And that’s, that’s where, who PR is typically trying to reach is that kind of very top of funnel person to create brand awareness. So it really does fit together quite nicely. But anyways, you put you put this, you get your keywords together, and you kind of identify what are the keywords that we need to be using, or we need to be focused on and once you identify those keywords, you pop them into search, and you see what shows up. And then what’s really interesting is that there’s a good likelihood that there’s a lot of conversation around your brand and search, but you would have no idea that it exists or no idea you know that it’s there. Unless your own website was showing up on the first page of search, or you had an ad on that page, otherwise, there’s no way to kind of footprint your brand presence on the first page search and identify all the different like, like I said earlier, what’s the likelihood of discovery within any given keyword search. And so that’s really what visibly is trying to automate is that we go through and we look at the content, and we don’t we look at every single link on the first page of search, and not just the link, but the content on the other side of that link. We look for positive brand matches, and then we organise it in some kind of unique ways.

And so another thing that we recognised as a PR agency, it wasn’t, it wasn’t valuable, just to identify where your brand existed, you really needed to also segment the search results by channel, right, because there’s so much stuff that’s irrelevant to the PR practitioner or the whatever, you know, marketing is so siloed in these various channels, like we have PR teams, we have e-commerce teams, and we have digital advertising teams, and we have our SEO teams. And unfortunately, they don’t talk to each other as much as they should, you know, they all kind of go off and do their own thing in different directions. Yet, when you look at search, it’s like this big, multi-channel sandbox where they’re all playing together, they’re all kind of competing for the same cliques. And yet, there’s not really a unified strategy being put forward here. So that’s what we’re trying to solve. We’re trying to get these teams together, we think there’s, you know, there’s an opportunity to look and say, oh, we’re gonna, we’re gonna optimise organically for this keyword, we’re gonna bid cost per click, you know, for this keyword, because we have lower visibility here. There’s a lot of e-commerce opportunity for this keyword, so on and so forth, until you really understand what these various landscapes look like, and how to build smart strategies to improve brand visibility within each keyword.

Mike: Interesting, so Visably is actually going out and looking at what’s on the pages for each of the top 10 or the first page search results. And then it’s telling you whether your brand is on the page or not on the page

Chris: Yeah. And then we segment it. Yeah. So what we’re doing is, we’re identifying Is it an earned media result? Or PR journalism hit? Or is it e-commerce? Or is it brand owned? Or is it something else. And the nice thing about that is then you can cleanly extract all the PR hits, and you can cleanly extract all the e-commerce hits. And you can also see, I think the other most a really important piece of this is is that the visibly shows you your blind spots shows you the areas that maybe you weren’t thinking about very critically, that you should be

Mike: Interesting. So you can actually pull out a list of the earned media that publications and identify those where you’re not actually appearing. So you can identify effectively PR opportunities, is that what you’re saying?

Chris: Yeah, and I think the other opportunity, the other kind of big third party opportunity here is with an e-commerce. And so in the United States, like we have these really huge kind of e-commerce giants like Amazon, and Best Buy, and maybe Home Depot and things like that. And within those stores, they’re like their own ecosystem, so thousands of products. And it’s if you can merchandise, well create visibility within those stores, you can do quite well as a brand. What I think is missing from that equation is that these that these big e-commerce properties do really well in organic search, they’re showing up in the in the top three top five search positions over and over again, for these really high volume keywords. That’s part of the reason that they’re maintaining their dominance is because they make it really easy for people to click through and buy. In, you know, I think people’s search behaviour or purchase behaviour is very similar to how it is in search. It’s like they either click through on that landing page that is at home at Home Depot or Best Buy or something, and they and they see those recommended products in if they’ll probably make a decision right away. Which of those products are right for them or not right for them. If they have to dig much deeper, they’re gonna probably miss, they’re not gonna they’re not gonna find it. So there’s an opportunity right there for brands to go back to their e-commerce partners and say, Well, these are a bunch of keywords that we’re not on your landing page for. How can we change that these are all merchandising opportunities for these brands as well.

Mike: Interesting so it can apply to PR but also to even channel strategy as well in terms of getting usability. Absolutely. And I mean, you’ve talked a lot about consumer, which is obviously, you know, the area that you’ve been very focused in. But is this applicable across a wide range of markets? A lot of our clients, for example, on consumer, in fact, we’re very focused on business to business technology. So does this apply equally to b2b? Or is it a consumer phenomenon?

Chris: I think it can do both for sure. You know, Visably, is a b2b SaaS solution. So and when we were doing our research in the category, very, you know, looking for software solutions, is there’s tremendous amount of PR around that, you know, and blogs and, and writers and influencers and things like that. And so, again, search dredges up the most relevant shared content and for any given category, and it gives you a shortlist of Like, who do I need to talk to who I need to reach out to, which are the writers, you know, for the SAS industry. So especially for SEO, in PR, it’s like, you know, you start doing this keyword researching like, oh, best free SEO tools, boom, like that keyword, right there has a tonne of traffic. And there’s, it’s all PR hits on the top page. And it lays out this roadmap for us as a company, a young company that just launched to say, oh, here’s who we need to talk to you to go out. And here’s how our customers are looking at the space because we know because this volume, is there, this search this monthly search volume. And then we can go out and hopefully try to get, you know, build some visibility for ourselves doing a strategy like that.

Mike: That’s really interesting. So you’re applying the tool to actually building the business, which is, which is great to hear.

Chris: We’re trying to walk our own walk. Yeah.

Mike: I’m, I guess, I’ve got to ask, you know, you’ve obviously moved from a PR background into, you know, as a SEO Software startup, that that’s a big jump. I mean, how hard was it to develop a software as a service product?

Chris: It was just, I mean, I have to say, it’s been really exciting. It’s, it’s a bit of a jump, for sure. But up until now, for the last, you know, 17 years of my career, I’ve been very focused on helping other people sell their stuff. And this is the first time ever, that I’m actually doing it for myself. So I have to say it’s, it’s just kind of thrilling to be in charge of, yeah, your marketing for a product that you own.

Mike: And in terms of pulling the data in you literally calculating stuff yourself for you. I mean, presumably, you look at the Google search page, and then go and look at the pages. And I also noticed you have some scores and values on the results that you get, I mean, how do you calculate those?

Chris: It’s, it’s an amalgam of a lot of different stuff. It is there is a waterfall of technology that happens a second, you press Search on visibly.com. And some of it is our proprietary technology. And some of it we’re relying on third party vendors for but the majority of it is ours at this point. And we’re moving toward a model where it will be all of ours hundred percent ours within the next year. So

Mike: Amazing, because, I mean, one of the things that it actually does is it gives you an equivalent add value for the clicks you’re supposed to drive, which is something I found very interesting, because it’s getting close to giving a value for PR.

Chris: Yeah, and it’s actually I think the equivalent advice that we’re giving is much more relevant than what the PR industry has used in the past. You know, in the past, I’ve had a real tough time with equivalent ad value, because it’s never truly equivalent, right? Like it’s, it’s the size of the ads versus the size of the PR placements never the same. ads are something that are there’s no fixed price on a you know, on an ad and like newspaper or magazine, it’s always like kind of wheeling and dealing that that that that price. So the thing about cost per click is that it’s a very consistent metric that’s played out across. You know, it’s like this is how much you pay for a click on Google period. And this and we can tell you very precisely what the estimated clicks were for your content within any given search. And so we have a we have a very precise estimate of this is the equivalent ad value that you just acquired for your customer. Like if they had to pay for this many clicks for this keyword, they would have had to pay this much. And I’ll tell you right now, Mike, something that your audience will be excited about and you’ll be excited about is that we are rolling out probably next week. Search locations specific data. So you’ll be able to search I think, I think the I think the, the software that you probably checked out, just pulled up generic USA search address. But what we are rolling out is you’ll be able to search anywhere in the world or any kind of key cities in the world.

Mike: So not just by country, but by city as well.

Chris: Not every city, but we do have all the big ones. Yep.

Mike: Oh, amazing. And presumably, the Visably technology also works with multiple languages, because you’re just looking for a brand.

Chris: It does. Yeah, it does work for multiple languages, although I will caveat it saying that our channel segmentation technology or identification technology is strongest within the English speaking language. So we do have some international sites, we have a handful of international sites, we have about seven and a half million sites total categorised at this point. And we find that that actually, you know, we’re dealing with a smaller landscape, because we’re really exclusively interested in the first page of search, because that’s where all the traffic and all the magic happens. But for sites that don’t show up with the first page of search, we’re less interested in trying to categorise them. And sometimes there, there’s, there’s so many sites out there, I’ll give you a quick anecdote that it’s kind of interesting. We, we acquired a list of over 100 and 1 million sites in the United States that were that were registered, it was every single site that was registered, you know, in the United States for the last, you know, since like 2014, or something. And we, we did all this analysis on the audit, and we whittled it down without a doubt. And we found that almost 95% of those sites on the hundred and 1 million list, even more, I think, was like 98%, they were part they weren’t even real sites, people, people, people had just bought the web domains, and we’re just sitting on them. It’s like real estate, you know, people buy these URLs. So I think, you know, the world, the world of like active sites is showing up in the on the top of search, it’s actually not as large as we might think it is. The amount of energy that it takes to get a top search position is quite a lot. And I think it actually stands to reason that that that universe would be smaller than we might imagine, and that it would be

Mike: Presumably you’re categorising the sites based upon an algorithm. You’re not having some era

Chris: Yeah. And sites and work well, it’s a, it’s a little bit about the mean, I mean, it’s machine learning, and it’s AI. But you anyone who’s ever done any AI in the past, know that you have to start with a data, you have to start with the training data set. So what you do is you build this data set, and then you give it to the machine and you teach the machine in that. And then the machine teaches itself how to how to understand these correlations between like what is earned media and what is owed to media and so on and so forth. But it has to start somewhere. You have to you have to tell it what is earned media and own media at the beginning. And so we did that by hand at the beginning. And we did some of it with us, some of it with people who we hired as temp kind of employees. And then we actually ended up hiring a group of people who were dedicated to doing it like 180 hours a week for several months. And we ended up going through and categorising and know something in the neighborhood of 60 or 70,000 domains by hand, and then that became our data set that we then trained machine to do the rest.

Mike: So it makes it tough for someone to come in because they’ve got to create that data set themselves.

Chris: Yeah, and the data set is only as accurate as your humans are. And we found that our you know, in the beginning or humans weren’t that accurate. They, they were making some mistakes. And so yeah, you go through and you do constant refinement. And so coming up with a really strong training data set is actually quite a challenge.

Mike: Interesting. So, I mean, one of the things I think that that always worries, particularly PR professionals is that SEO can be very complex and technical if somebody was using Visably. I mean, how difficult is it to start getting value from the tool straightaway?

Chris: Oh, it’s it’s so easy. And it’s so it’s kind of fun to I think because it shows you right away like what your footprint looks like within any given search result. And sometimes, you know, especially for young brands, like their footprints can be pretty light. But for more established brands say it was like Unilever or something like that, and they would they be all over the place, but there’s no way to track that information. There’s no way to see who’s having that conversation about their brand online? And so all of a sudden, we kind of like show what’s going on there. We also show this kind of this structural breakdown of how the SERP is I think what, what what SEO is will kind of recognise is that search results end up being either transactional in nature or informational in nature. And what I mean by that is that people rather, you know, the search engine has to make a determination when you type in, like, like a very broad term, like, like running shoes, to say, am I gonna? Is this person looking to buy a pair of running shoes? Are they looking to learn about running shoes? And that’s something that at least Google does every single time you type in a keyword and they have to make this determination? Is this is this a transactional search intent? Or is it informational in nature, and the informational stuff is what has a tonne of value for the PR industry? And there’s a lot of it, there’s a lot of information. There’s a lot of like, people asking questions and people getting recommendations, and it’s all PR. And so I feel like if we harness our tools, and we start looking at how do we how do we do a better job focusing our PR efforts around search? It’s it’s a really straightforward ROI for clients, because it’s really quite easy reporting. And we actually provide that on visibly, as well as just how can you do better reporting and show impact and show and show actual customers qualified customers, not just like audience numbers, but qualified customers? I think that’s a big difference. And then that equivalent add value. It’s like, you know, I think any marketing teams who say, oh, wow, like, we do spend a lot of money at Google every single month, and you just acquired this much equivalent add value for us that that makes sense that that clicks, so no pun intended. But anyways, yeah, it’s, I think the other the other piece about visibly, that is really useful for PR pros is that it provides this really useful roadmap about who to contact, and it’s a, it’s also a list building tool. So, you know, we allow you to download a spreadsheet with the results. And with it within that spreadsheet, every single outlet is tagged as as as earned media or something else. And then you can just kind of store it and grab all the earned media hits, and then pop that in, and that that becomes your media.

Mike: Fantastic. I mean, it’s, it’s a fairly new tool, I mean, how long is Visably been live and available for people to use?

Chris: Well, we, we rolled it out for the first time in closed beta this past winter, early, early 2020. And then it wasn’t until this summer that we kind of released an open beta version of it. And so right now, what we have is entirely free, there’s an either, there’s no place to even put it into credit card. So don’t even worry about that, we’re not gonna charge you at all for for using it, we’re looking for feedback, we are rolling out a pro version of the tool, which will be much more robust. And what what the pro version will allow you to do is set up campaigns with with dozens or hundreds or even thousands of keywords, and then monitor much larger kind of data sets, and how your search visibility is performing and much larger data sets. And then I think the other really powerful thing about the pro tool is that it will allow you to extract all the PR hits out of a, you know, extensively thousands of search results. And so you’ll get these really huge media lists that you can build out of them.

Mike: So you could look at all the keywords that client cares about and understand which publications are on the first page for across all those keywords in one go.

Chris: Exactly. And I think like I said before, it exposes your blind spots. And I think that as an agency owner, that was really helpful for us to identify, wow, like, we were we don’t we, you know, we thought we had the relationships with everyone who mattered. But then we looked in search. And we did this analysis, and we realised there were a whole lot of people who we didn’t have relationships with who we didn’t know very well. And so it kind of showed a spotlight and a whole lot of people who we we needed to do a better job with. And so that was really valuable for us. And then what we would do as well as agencies, we would kind of benchmark our success, we’d say okay, here’s where you are in q1 of this year. Then after we worked on this keyword for a few months, here’s where you are in q3 or q2. And you could show this progression of like dominance across the page, like pretty much any, any, any any result in the page you would click on would say buy our clients product. And not only does that are you getting in front of a lot of customers there but you’re typically focusing on keywords are the most competitive keywords out there. And from a client’s perspective, they have the least likelihood of ever ranking their website for this keyword. So you’re creating visibility in places that they can’t reach organically, which they really appreciate.

Mike: Fascinating. So you can do things that the SEO guys can’t achieve, which I think our pros would love to hear that.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, you know, PR pros already know this, like, from advertising, it’s like, you know, we’re able to get earned media hits in big publications that might be more too expensive for our clients to advertise. And yet we’re building visibility through the publication of their own pages, it’s the same thing for the internet, we’re able to use the domain authority, if you will, of these large publishers to get the top of search. And that top of search position can be a very, very powerful, powerful place to be. Definitely.

Mike: So how’s it going with Visably at the moment? I mean, how many people do you have using the tool?

Chris: We’re brand new, I don’t want to share about numbers right now. We’d love for more people to come check it out. So we’ve only really been promoting that we exist since the beginning of July. So just this month, honestly, and, and you know, what, what, we don’t even have anything to sell yet. So we’re, we’re still quite early on. I think for us, it was really important that our technology was working right before we told people that we existed. And that, you know, there’s like I said, at the beginning of every station, there’s this huge waterfall of technology, that has to happen very, very quickly. For once you press that search button, I can tell you right now that the majority of solutions, software solutions in this space, none of them do it live, we are pulling live search results. And we are we’re scraping a lot of websites, for every single time you do that. And there’s a natural latency that happens with every single website that you’re scraping. So you know, it just takes a little bit longer. And when I say it takes a bit longer, it probably takes like eight to 10 seconds to get a result back from from Visably, whereas you might be used to getting resolved back in like two to three seconds on their platform. The other platform, what they’re doing is they’re caching their results. And so you’re seeing results that they that they scraped, and then they put into a database. And they might be as it might be as old as a month old, you know, so it’s not really very fresh data. And with visibly, we’re just making sure that you guys are seeing what’s what’s happening right now at the moment that you’re doing it. Yeah,

Mike: I mean, when I played with it, that to be honest, I don’t think it was even a 10 second delay. It was very quick.

Chris: Well, thank you. That’s, that’s great to hear. Makes me it makes me very, very pleased to hear that.

Mike: Brilliant. So if your plan to have a free version available forever. Is that is that the goal? And then have a free tool?

Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So we, we I have, we have no plans of ever making what’s currently available behind a paywall. That’s pretty much our kind of our trial version. And people can kind of could do go on there and do some research and kind of see how it works and see if they like it, and then this and then this pro version will be much more robust and will be I’ll allow you to track these things over time automatically and do much, much larger campaigns that way.

Mike: So the pro version will be able to show you how your visibility for certain search terms improves over time.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’ll give you a better example. So for these for these brands, especially consumer brands that operate in different verticals, in you know, say like, say, say visibly, for instance, even like we’re a b2b company, we have multiple potential customers like this is a multi channel tool. So we have, we’ve ecommerce teams that may want to use this. And we have PR teams that may want to use this, we have SEO teams that may want to use this and so on. In each one of them, what what we might want to do is put together say like, anywhere from 20 to 30, keywords that are all around SEO, and then we’ll start monitoring that as like a campaign, then we’ll put in 20 to 30 keywords around, you know, PR software, most are monitoring that as a campaign. So once you kind of, you know, start to segment, you know, your users, that’s essentially what a campaign is. And then you can kind of see how you’re doing across that landscape. And then you can also do all this lunch, all this link building or sorry, not link building, but list building. Link Building is important too. But list building is kind of what as PR professionals, we do a lot of that.

Mike: Fascinating. When do you think the pro version will be launched?

Chris: Well, our hope is this fall. So we’re looking at an October timeframe.

Mike: So pretty soon then. So pressure.

Chris: Yeah. pressures on pressure has been on for a while. Yeah. pressures on to make some money. And we’re spending a lot of it right now.

Mike: It sounds like there’s been a lot of investment in development and technology that obviously at the moment, you know, you’re not getting any money back for so I guess the question is, you know, people listening to the podcast, how do they get to try visibly and take advantage of the free version?

Chris: Totally, yeah. So just come check us out, were visibly Visably.com. And it’s a very simple signup form, and then you’re in we don’t, we don’t limit the amount of searches you can do. And feel free to check it out. And like I said, I think starting as soon as next week, we will actually probably this weekend, we will have, you’ll be able to search, specifically anywhere in the world, especially in the UK.

Mike: Amazing that that will be great. I mean, I’ve certainly had a play with it. And it’s very, very user friendly, very easy to use. So I’d recommend everybody tries it. I also noticed you had a fabulous white paper as well on the website, talking about search engine optimization, or search optimization for PR pros.

Chris: Yeah, so that’s, that’s also free. And it’s at the top of the navbar, you’ll see white paper and we have a fairly in depth. It’s pretty dense, but it pretty useful. Kind of white paper on the intersection of PR and SEO.

Mike: Cool. That’s brilliant. And if people want to get in contact with you personally, what is the best way to reach you?

Chris: The best way to reach me is Visibly SEO at twitter. I’m at LinkedIn under Chris Dickey, or you can go to the Visably website and just reach out to info@visably.com email address, and that will make it to my inbox.

Mike: Awesome. Well, that’s great. I mean, I really appreciate your time, Chris, having played with Visably, it is certainly the most straightforward and most relevant PR approach to SEO I’ve ever seen. And a very different take on SEO where we’re not just looking at the website but looking at where we get coverage. So I found this fascinating, and we’ll certainly be using visibly going forward.

Chris: Well, thanks so much, Mike. I’m excited to hear more of your thoughts as you integrate it into your campaigns.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.