In this podcast episode, we interview Shea Castle, Senior Customer Marketing Manager at Terminus, a leading Account-Based Marketing (ABM) platform.

Shea shares his story of how he became part of the Terminus team, and explains how Terminus and ABM flip the traditional marketing funnel, to deliver a full market approach to enable B2B companies to target the people that matter.

He also shares how Terminus is an orchestration platform that brings together first and third-party data points, and what the platform allows its customers to achieve.

Transcript: Interview with Shea Castle – Terminus

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today.

Welcome to marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I’m joined by shake arsal, who’s the senior customer marketing manager at Terminus. Welcome to the podcast, Shay. Yeah, thanks. Happy to be here. Fantastic. So just to start, can you give us a bit of a background about yourself and how you ended up at Terminus?

Shea: Yeah, it’s actually, you know, not to make too much of our production. But it’s a funny story. So I started out in acting, and kind of through a process of developing a television show and going through some fundraising, I kind of took on the marketing persona, if you will, and running our social channels, and a lot of the PR, things like that. And as I moved out of acting, I was looking for a career path that, you know, a little more stability, but still had a lot of that creativity that I was looking for, and thought, Hey, you know, marketing is a little bit of what I’ve been doing already. So why not pursue that and after a couple of years, working in more corporate environments, had an opportunity to join Terminus, it’s account based marketing is something I’ve always believed in as a strategy. And so it was kind of a no brainer for me to join the team and kind of work on supporting our customers.

Mike: Fantastic. I did notice, I guess, in between the acting and Terminus that you found, and that is a website called Shea hates everything.com. Are you really that grumpy?

Shea: Yes. So it’s, it’s funny in in college, I had a lot of friends, you know, where we were in acting programme and really passionate about entertainment, that sort of thing. And I was kind of always like, the super critical one. And that became a running joke that whenever we would go see a movie or go to a concert, like I bet she hated it, he hates everything. And so I kind of just despite them, when I was putting together a website that was just sort of reviews on you know, video games and movies and comic books and things that I was into, I just kind of leaned into that a little bit more. They’re the critical attitude. So got to own the brand, I guess.

Mike: Fantastic. I take it you don’t hate everything. And actually, you’re quite enjoying your time at Terminus. Yeah, I don’t think I hate everything. So So tell me, can you explain to the listeners exactly what Terminus does? What what is it that terms of setup today?

Shea: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, coming from a background that was really focused on demand Gen, I kind of lived in the trenches of looking for leads, and passing leads to sales, and hearing, we’re not getting enough leads or the leads you’re giving, you’re not good enough. And just feeling kind of cut out of the process through no one’s fault. That’s just kind of the way that b2b marketing has been done.

And so when I first heard about Terminus, you know, it’s this idea around account based marketing, where, instead of boiling the ocean, trying to get those 1% of leads to convert into sales, why don’t we flip sort of that traditional marketing funnel and start with the people that we know, we want to sell to our ICP that are showing us signals that they’re ready to talk and ready to buy. And so that’s really what Terminus does. It’s, you know, an orchestration platform that brings together first and third party data points, various channels of engagement, like digital advertising, chats, email, and a lot of measurement and insights to kind of show the value everything marketing’s doing to influence and create those opportunities and pipeline.

Mike: Interesting. So, I mean, how would you describe the difference between account based marketing and conventional marketing?

Shea: Yeah, I think it’s really like that, that that funnel mentality, like that traditional funnel of let’s get as many leads as we can, we’ll nurture them through the funnel, hand them off to sales, and eventually some of them will close. And instead, starting with these are the accounts we know are a good fit for us firma, graphically, technic graphically, we know that they’re showing signal in the market, they’re coming to our website, they’re showing, you know, levels of intent. They fit the firma graphics that we’re looking for. And then really just focusing in on those accounts, engaging them everywhere they are on the internet, on our website, generating content specific to their needs, and working hand in hand with sales to really amplify all of that content to the folks at those accounts that matter.

Mike: Interesting. You talk about two things there. One is focusing on the accounts and the other is personalising the content. I’m interested to know whether you think account based marketing works primarily because you’re focusing the budget on certain companies, or whether it’s because you can do more personalization, or maybe it’s a bit of both.

Shea: Yeah, I think that’s the easy answer is that it is a little bit of both. It’s about you know, from a financial perspective, it’s about creating efficiency, and more, you know, pipeline that can be expected to flows versus like looking at a number of leads we need like, it’s like backtracking, right? Like you start with, here’s the dollar amount we need from that new business to keep the business going. And how do we back out of that to what’s the quantity of leads, we need to hit that revenue. And instead, it’s starting with the revenue, and the accounts that we know want to buy from us. And those things go far more hand in hand. And then on the personalization side, because you’re focused on a much smaller number of accounts versus boiling the ocean, it lets you create more relevant content for those people as well as more relevant content to help sales and customer success make those customers successful. So I do think that it’s both.

Mike: Interesting. And I mean, I guess from what you’re saying, there’ll be different levels of proficiency if you’d like for companies that are trying to do account based marketing.

Shea: Oh, absolutely. And like, account based marketing, we have a sort of a running joke internally at Terminus, that it was kind of a bad name, like we’re too far along into this ABM thing to change it now. But it really it’s more than just marketing. It’s about a full go to market approach across your customer facing teams. But there’s a tonne of variability in the sophistication.

And the reality is, is that most b2b companies today are already doing things that we would, you know, quantify as ABM, like, most companies have their whale accounts, right, like their top 10 accounts, their enterprise people that they’re trying to close. And that’s they have sales reps dedicated to those folks. They’re running events that are private to those people there might even be generating content that specifically calls those companies out, running advertising campaigns, specifically to those people like all of that is ABM. And I don’t think that there needs to be necessarily like a gatekeeping around, are you doing ABM or not, I think the bigger thing is that the approach is a strategy. It’s not about any one solution or any one team, it’s a full go to market approach that has changed in the past couple of years.

Mike: Interesting. So I mean, people, you know, more proficient and, you know, presumably will be reflected by your customers. You know, I’m interested in Terminus talks about, you know, having effectively three key elements that the software package, can you just explain how that works?

Shea: Yeah, absolutely. So the way that we talked about sort of our full platform, and it starts with data and insights into those of the things I’m talking about with, you know, first and third party data, bringing in intent data through a partnership with bombora, those types of things. And then we have all of our different channels of engagement. And that’s how we’re actually getting in front of the people you care about, through things like display advertising. You know, retargeting, our partnership with LinkedIn. And in terms of advertising, we have chats, email experiences, those sorts of things. And then on the back side, it’s the measurement, which is really, really important not just to marketing in general, but especially especially when it comes to account based marketing. Because, you know, as we’re talking about here, like we’re talking about changing a strategy, and there are lots of expectations involved when that happens. So we just want to give credit, where it’s due to the programmes that marketing is running, and sort of how they’re influencing the pipeline, instead of tying everything back to Oh, this programme generated x leads, it’s, oh, this programme helped create these opportunities to influence this pipeline and accelerated deals. It’s helping with retention, getting back to the money metrics that matter. And that’s a big part of what our measurement does.

Mike: That’s interesting. And it sounds like a lot of what you’re doing is interfacing to other marketing technology tools are partnering with them to get all this capabilities. Is that right?

Shea: Yeah, it’s a combination. So Terminus has been around for a little over six years at this point. And we started as primarily a digital advertising vendor. So that was kind of like, if someone’s looking to get started with capital letters, ABM, where do they start and account based advertising was and then a lot of ways still is the best place to start. And since then, we have grown our capabilities through partnerships as well as acquisitions. So just in the past year, for example, we acquired three different companies, or the year and a half apart three different companies that have different types of data, different types of engagement chat, for example, is one of them. So, you know, what we’re looking to do here is build a platform. And it’s something that would sit right alongside a CRM or a marketing automation platform. And to do that, and to build a one stop shop. And that way, you have to do it through organic growth, acquisition and strategic partnerships.

Mike: Sounds quite challenging to have to do the acquisition, the internal development, and also partner with people as well.

Shea: Yeah. And the great news is that I’m not responsible for buying companies or setting up all the contracting, I just get to tell our customers how cool all the new functionality is, so it’s fine with me.

Mike: That’s awesome. So, I mean, if we look at using Terminus you know, presumably somebody sat there, they’ve maybe got a marketing automation system, they’ve almost certainly got a CRM system for a marketing team or something, how they go about that deploying Terminus and starting to get value from it.

Shea: Yeah, it really starts from an integration perspective. So kind of to your point, you know, when we look at who our ideal customers are understanding that, you know, they have a CRM, they have some sort of Mar tech stack that we will sit alongside as well as, like sales tools. And it’s really about how do we work with those things, and bring data back and forth. So you know, one of the primary benefits of Terminus in particular, when it comes to ABM solutions is that we are like, we can be a one stop shop for your data and your insights and your actions and your engagement channels. But it’s also, as we have learned over the years, it’s super critical that we’re also able to bring that stuff back to what a lot of folks still consider their point that there is no single source of truth, which would be their CRM.

So the integrations is a huge aspect of that, and knowing where you want the data to live, where you want the measurement to live, and like, Where are your users and like sales, in particular, Where do they live is their workflow, because we want to give them all that data and all that insight, versus trying to train them to do a completely new process? So then secondarily, you know, as I mentioned, like ABM is a strategy and a lot of the work to be successful early with Terminus is done before purchasing Terminus, like, you know, do have you mapped out your ideal customer profile. And how did you do that? Is it based on data? Or is it based upon who sales says they want to sell to? How do you work with sales today? Do you have, you know, weekly bi weekly meetings with them, where you align on programmes that you’re running? Or is it seen as like a fence in between where you’re throwing leads over the fence to sales, and they work them or they’re, or they don’t like a lot of those process, things are really critical to having success with ABM early on more so than like the button clicky in the product stuff.

Mike: Interesting. So if you had someone coming to Terminus who was was really interested in ABM, they felt that they were ready to go and you looked at them and said, they just haven’t done any of this kind of, you know, strategic kind of planning stage. I mean, how do you deal about that? Do you actually have ability to support them through it?

Shea: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, so, you know, in particular, our onboarding team is phenomenal in really getting to the meat of what a customer is trying to do and how they’re trying to do it, what they’re doing today, and what the, in identifying what those roadblocks are. It’s just something that like, especially in the sales process, we’re getting better at identifying not not as a like a reason to not buy Terminus or to not pursue ABM, but really like, the reason that customers come to us is because they know what they’re doing today isn’t working, and they know there’s a better way. And there are things internally that will prevent you from having success with that better way immediately. And so we’re happy to partner with you strategically and just from a process perspective to build that out. I mean, we have over 1000 customers, like we’ve been around for a while, we, you know, know a lot of the best practices. So it really is just about understanding what those roadblocks might be with a particular customer. And then, you know, we’ll help you battle through them.

Mike: And presumably, a lot of those prospective customers are very keen to get that knowledge. I mean, it’s an almost Another benefit of buying terminals is the process expertise.

Shea: 100%. Yeah, and, you know, one of the biggest pieces, you know, I’m on the customer side. So I hear a lot of this too. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback that we always get is how supportive our customer success team, our onboarding team, our support team are and how customers really view them as an extension of their own team, that when they come across a process problem, or a strategy problem, or this campaign didn’t work the way we wanted it to like what do we do to iterate and they feel totally comfortable coming to our team to get that expertise and that knowledge.

Mike: Awesome. So somebody’s been through the kind of strategic stage, they’ve signed up to Terminus. So I’m really interested because Turner seems to do an awful lot from you know, finding out intent data and the insights, all the way through to pumping out the end analytics, the end. I mean, how, how do you deal with something that that is, you know, really quite complex, and add it to your marketing stack?

Shea: Yeah, so you mean from the perspective of like a buyer? How do they do that? Yeah.

Mike: How would How would a customer you know?

 

Shea: Yeah, yeah, I think the internal alignment is a huge part of it, and like getting the right people at the table. So you know, one of the big things that we always preach is like because ABM is a strategy, it’s more than just, we’re gonna have one person on our marketing team own Terminus, and that’s how we’re going to do ABM. And you know, my response to that is like, you’re probably not going to have success because you need that executive alignment on new metrics for marketing and for sales. Like we’re no longer looking at an M qL goal, the way that we used to what we’re running programmes to support pipeline, which for a lot of companies is not a marketing metric, we’re we’re running programmes that actually tie back to retention, which is not typically a marketing metric. So it’s about getting that alignment from a leadership perspective and buy in from sales to know that this is a different kind of support. You know, we talked about leads and a lot of ways, and I never want to, you know, make someone think that we hate leads, or that leads are completely valueless. But it’s just a different way.

It’s a different approach that we’re taking here. And so it’s important for sales to understand to write, like, the things that we’re doing, the intent is to not generate leads for you. It’s to support the accounts, you’re already working and help you identify specific accounts that are in market to buy, which is so much more powerful. But the the challenge often becomes like the proof is in the pudding. Right? And so one of the things that I always try to preach to our customers that are just starting with ABM is get really buddy buddy, which is a handcuff a handful of sales reps, you know, do more work with those folks to show that success. And then those become internal case studies to prove the value of what you’re doing to build that adoption.

Mike: Perfect. Now, that’s really interesting that you talk about the fact that ABM is not just a different way of thinking but different way of reporting, you know, up to the board, which is, I think, a really important point. Yeah, definitely. So in terms of deploying Terminus, is there a particular you know, market or industry category, that seems to get the most benefit from this kind of product?

Shea: Yeah, b2b businesses. I mean, like, that’s the truth, when you look at our total addressable market, it really is. Any b2b business, you know, that’s where we’re focused. But inside of that, there are things that we look at that make people a better fit for us. So I mentioned, you know, you have a CRM, there’s a, you know, a metric for what your Mar tech stack actually looks like today, just to understand how we would work with those things. And to show us a little bit more of that sophistication, we find that companies that are like, you know, very, very small, one person marketing team, like just brand new startups, sometimes don’t have as much success just because they don’t have the support systems there.

But on the other side of it, I, you know, I have a handful of customers that I work with already that are super small, and they started with ABM, because part of this is, you know, it’s a transfer transformational process. And so if you have a lot of processes in place that fight against an ABM strategy that can become more difficult. But if you’re starting from the ground up saying like, this is our strategy, this is what we’re doing, you can definitely have a lot of success with Terminus. And another thing I would mention, so, you know, we have a variety of different verticals as well, but we often find that SAS companies are really successful, just because of the approach of ABM fits pretty well into the SAS kind of mould.

Mike: And presumably SAS as well is probably easier to measure than some other b2b companies. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, you talked about working with very, very small companies. I mean, I think one of the perceptions of ABM is that you can do a certain amount of ABM, you know, as a small company with a limited budget, but but you know, these big tools like Terminus, they’re really the preserve of, you know, global enterprises with huge teams. I mean, it’s the product expensive, or can you actually really make it work in a smaller company?

Shea: Yeah, I think I mean, it depends on your approach, right? Like, and you can buy Terminus in a handful of ways with our different channels and different kinds of measurements. Sweet. So there’s, there’s certainly a here’s how you get started option with Terminus versus like, the full on I’m gonna buy everything. It’s really interesting to hear you know, ABM as sort of more of an enterprise approach, because for a long time, it was kind of the opposite, right? Like, it felt more so like small businesses and the mid market because there’s those marketing teams are so much more nimble. And those types of companies have to work so much harder to build awareness of what they do and who they are compared to a huge enterprise company that ABM seemed more approachable for more of those smaller companies.

But I mean, specifically to the cost perspective, you know, I think that if you put us up against something like a CRM, then no, it’s not an expensive solution. But if you’re putting us up against a singular point of engagement channel solution, yes, we’re going to be more expensive because we just have so much more to offer. And really our goal here is, let’s stop marketers from having to have 10 solutions to solve one problem, and instead have one solution to solve that one problem in 10 different ways. And that’s kind of the approach that we take.

Mike: Interesting, and I like to bring out this kind of solution that covers the whole range of ABM because there’s certainly a lot of point solutions that may be you know, provide some of the insight or, you know, perhaps runs advertising or email campaigns and what one of the real benefits about having this integration? What do you see your customers doing that? Maybe they couldn’t achieve with multiple point products?

Shea: Yeah, I think it’s it’s primarily about the orchestration and letting the data points and the engagement talk to each other. So instead of having to do all the backend work to have an email solution and the chat solution and the digital advertising solution, like where does that data live? How do those things talk to each other? And, you know, going back to the ABM is a strategy point, like, the goal of this is to create a full funnel experience that is comprehensive and personalised for your target customer, how can you do that if the individual systems that you’re using aren’t talking to each other in a robust way, and so we to solve that problem by saying everything lives with inside Terminus, like, you know, everything that you’re doing from a chat perspective and a digital advertising perspective, you know, creating the audiences that you’re going after all of that can live within Terminus and be measured within Terminus?

Mike: Interesting, could maybe you could give me some specific examples about you know, how people would approach campaigns or or use insights with Terminus versus using classic marketing, you know, sort of the whole broad market approach.

Shea: Yeah, so starting with the point of who we’re going after, right, so so identifying, you know, we live within this market with these specific verticals are sort of our bread and butter, this company size is sort of our bread and butter. And that’s how you would typically start with like a generalised ICP. And we kind of sit on top of that to be able to say, okay, amongst those companies call it 1000. Companies, amongst those, how many of them are already coming to your website, aka know that you exist, you can focus in on those people with a different type of message than the ones that are not coming to your website that need more awareness, advertising, for example, to tell them who you are and what you do to drive that website engagement. And as they’re going through the funnel is really where you layer on additional channels.

So I mentioned our partnership with bombora intent data that lives with inside Terminus, to understand outside of your website, what are these accounts doing on on the internet? What types of things are they researching, to give you better insight into if they’re also looking at competitors, if they’re looking at solutions that you can add to, you know, to to as an expansion, opportunity, etc? What problems are they actually trying to solve that you can help them with to really contextualise that sales outreach to make sure that the content that’s being delivered and the message that’s being delivered is relevant. And then you know, once those accounts are continue to come to your website, you we you have, we have chat that exists where you can use that original account list to say when accounts that are within this list, come to my website, this is the chat message that they’re going to receive, that points them to specific content that connects them with, you know, a BDR and ADR that knows what they’re doing already online.

And again, can contextualise that conversation. And then once we get towards the bottom of the funnel, where more than one to one email outreach is happening, you can use our email experiences, which basically creates a banner and an email signature that points to content or it can point to chat, or it can point to a webinar or to book a meeting those things to help support that process. And then once they are a customer, using all those channels to sort of create a great customer experience.

This is obviously something you know, as I work on the customer marketing side that I’m super passionate about. We spend all this time and effort getting someone to be a customer, what are we doing after they become a customer, making sure we get that full journey experience and that they’re being treated the same way post sale as they were pre sale. So you know, just from a high level, walking through and adding channels starting from that list that you built just as a quick example.

Mike: Interesting. That’s great. I mean, I guess one question I have to ask is, you know, we’re hearing a lot about, particularly Apple, clamping down on tracking and cookies and Google talking about eliminating cookies. And also we’re seeing a lot of people working at home, and therefore presumably not necessarily popping up as having an IP address that that is owned by the company you’re targeting. So is it becoming more difficult to do ABM or are you able to get around these challenges?

Shea: So to give the sort of competitive dig answer, I will say that it is becoming more difficult for some vendors to do ABM I do not believe it is becoming more difficult for us to do ABM because this is something we’ve been planning for for a while. So just just as a you know, as a quick example, you mentioned cookies. That’s something that had been foundational to our advertising, which was different than some other vendors that were really focused around IP targeting. So when someone’s in the office, they can get in front of them. us being able to track cookies on different devices we can catch you when you’re at a Starbucks you’re at home etc. as folks move to move home it became more difficult obviously from an IP perspective to get in front of those people where we saw far less of that challenge, as it go forward now that Google in particular is moving away from cookies, we actually just ran a really great webinar on this topic and kind of what our plan is.

So our acquisition of sr, who was an email provider that that we now have as a channel, as well as ramble who was a chat provider that lives with inside Terminus, both of those two platforms have really robust one to one data that they’re able to capture because of the email because of the chat. And those things are the foundation of our go forward, like advertising plan to really understand those data points beyond what cookies could do. So really, in some ways, it’s a boon for us as a forcing function to move forward with like the next stage of targeting. Because, you know, we’re confident we’re gonna see a lot of customers that will have much better ability to get in front of folks than they even have had historically with cookies.

Mike: That’s amazing. That’s brilliant. I mean, I have to ask, you know, we’ve talked about an awful lot of functionality and a single tool. I mean, is it difficult for people to use Turner’s what was the kind of learning curve to go from being a customer to really getting value?

Shea: Yeah, I think a lot of it goes back to my earlier point on, you know, what you’re doing Before starting, because that’s where we see the most customers fall down is around those internal processes and in alignment. And I think that, you know, it really depends on what the business outcome is that you’re trying to drive is, for example, if you’re a smaller company, that is going after a couple of big fish, like we have 30 accounts, that if like, if we sold to those 30 accounts, our business would explode, there’s a lot more front end work, you need to do around awareness to those companies, getting them to understand who you are, what the value is. And a lot of those companies might not already be in the market for a solution like yours. And so there’s a lot of warming up and introducing of a problem that needs to happen before a sale.

So you know, if that’s what you’re trying to do, it takes longer to get that close one revenue, which is why we really focus in on are you driving those people to your website? How are they engaging with you? Are you at least creating opportunities to really show the success early of what you’re doing, compared to a company who’s more mature that, like, Hey, we we are going after 5000 accounts, we pretty much understand who’s in the market today, we just really need to get this pipeline faster, you know, to close faster. And that’s much easier to turn that around quickly and see those metrics because you compare compare it against historical data. So it really you know, not to give us the super fuzzy answer. But it kind of depends on what outcome you’re looking to drive. The positive thing I would say is there are so many data points that show the value of the work that you’re doing outside of historically, did we create a conversion? Did we qualify that lead did sales except that lead as really the only main touch points, we can look at much more contextual measurement of the success of what you’re doing today?

Mike: I think I chose a great answer. I think you basically said that it’s much less to do with how long it takes to learn the total is much more about the other factors around your campaign. So I think you very nicely said it’s actually not a gating factor.

Shea: Yeah, I think so. I mean, learning a new platform, it can be a challenge for anyone and so that that will always be part of it, just you know, of robustness and understanding of how to navigate and like that’s that’s a problem for any software solution. But the real challenge is all the work that’s done ahead of time.

Mike: Great point. I’m, we’re just coming to the end. I mean, Terminus is such a big platform with so many features. Is there anything you feel we’ve we’ve missed that you’d like to cover or talk about?

Shea: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned that a little bit. But one of the things, especially over the past year, where businesses had to pivot so quickly from to a retention conversation. So like with budgets being slashed due to COVID, you know, a focus around how do we make our customers happier? How do we keep them? How do we expand within them? Got so much more light shone on it, then historically, and I think that, you know, working on that side of the house, that’s certainly my passion in general, but it was kind of like a thank you moment for me to see so many more people focus in on their customers because we get it especially in like b2b marketing and sales. We get so focused on like, how do we just create more pipeline, how we close more deals, how do we get more people here versus focusing in on how do we make our existing customers really successful? And that’s an area especially with ABM that we saw our customers lean into more heavily versus, you know, historically how

We create awareness at companies, how do we create more pipeline that’s predictable? How do we engage with people throughout the sales process, and then once they become a customer, the ABM stops, the ABM is only focused on that pre sale. And so a lot of customers came back and we’re like, Okay, now we’re really excited to use these channels that we already have these strategies that we already have to make our customers really successful both to save them as well to expand within them. So that’s just an area that I always want to hit on, when it comes to ABM, because it’s always so thought of as a pre sale strategy. But the whole point is that it’s a, it’s about the full customer lifecycle. So the more that you can do there to support folks on the back end, the happier they’re going to be, the more they’re going to stay with you, the longer they’re going to stay with you and the more they’re going to spend with you. So that fits into ABM just as much as you know that awareness conversation.

Mike: Absolutely. So that’s a brilliant point. I think look after your customers and an ABM is a great tool to do that. Yeah. And so if anyone’s listening to the podcast, and they’re, you know, either interested in talking to you or interested in learning more about Terminus, what’s the best way to get in contact and find out more?

Shea: Yeah, I mean, terminus.com is best place to go just to learn broadly about ABM as well as how we fit into the market. tonnes of great content there, but I’m also happy to answer questions point you in the right direction. Anyone can email me Shay sh eae at Terminus COMM And that’ll get in front of me.

Mike: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Your time has been fascinating, and I’m sure a lot of listeners would be interested to, you know, take their ABM to the next level after hearing this.

Shea: Yeah, really appreciate the time is a fun combo. So thanks. Thanks very much.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.