In this podcast episode, we interview Kate Terry, Head of Demand at Turtl, a content automation platform.

Kate shares why she thinks content is essentially communication, and why Turtl is persuading marketers to move away from webpages and PDFs. She discusses how the platform encourages an interactive and personalized approach, and how Turtl provides data that marketers can use to optimise content.

Listen to the podcast now via the links below:

Transcript: Interview with Kate Terry – Turtl

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I’m talking with Kate Terry, who’s head of demand at Turtle. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.

Kate: Hi, Mike, thanks so much for having me. And great to be here.

Mike: Awesome. So I’m really interested, you’ve ended up at Turtle, but how did you get there? Can you talk us through your career and what you’ve done?

Kate: Definitely. So I have done marketing in quite a few different industries, and actually in quite a few places around the world as well. I started out doing marketing for a law firm in Austin, Texas moved into actually a life science consultancy in Denmark alongside a master’s programme, where I was studying cognition and communication. So the way we communicate and think and how we interact with technology. And then after that, I actually went to into marketing and higher education in London for a little bit, I was quite interested in the research and goal and kind of continuing on in that. But I wanted to get into technology marketing, in particular. And actually, I came across the perfect company, because it pulled together my interest in psychology, my interest in kind of understanding the way we think and communicate, and then my desire to kind of be in a really fast paced business working with really innovative products. So that was when I moved over to turtle. And, you know, as I said, It originally stood out to me, because the technology is built around psychology, it’s an innovative product, it looks to kind of really improve the experience for those of us who are both making and reading business content. So I’d say it’s something that we can hopefully all benefit from one day. And, you know, I think at the core of it content is essentially just communication, it’s kind of the glue of business, and especially in a remote first environments. It’s the way that we’re all kind of sharing our knowledge, sharing our expertise, sharing the solutions that we have, and kind of getting getting through to the people we want to reach and communicate with. So it’s it’s really essential. And I think having a different approach to it and understanding kind of engagement, understanding psychology, understanding what really works, you know, we’re kind of approaching it with different ways to democratize content across the organisation. So it’s just a really exciting mission to be part of and, you know, kind of ties into my background in a really interesting way that makes me excited to work.

Mike: It’s interesting, because you’re trying to persuade us marketers to move away from web pages and PDFs.

Kate: Yes, yes, that’s right. The PDF is a classic and known enemy of turtle, we, you know, there, there are quite a few challenges, I think, with PDF that, you know, we can probably get into. But at its core, it’s just a legacy format that isn’t, and was never really designed to be a real time easy to optimise easy to engage with digital format, it was designed to replace print and to kind of be something that fit in with that idea of like the print cycle of production, where you would go to press and get it out there. And then it’s there. And just That’s it, you know, so I think what we see in so many domains is that online, we act in a much more on demand and responsive way, we need to engage with content in that way. And the PDF just hasn’t really caught up. Not to mention, it’s just likes engagement. You know, I’ll get into it a little bit later. But we’ve got some interesting stats about how, how much engagement you actually lose when you send out content in a PDF.

Mike: That’s interesting. I mean, I guess one of the first things, you know, somebody cynical, might say, as well, people are running content marketing campaigns, and they’re running them to generate leads. So doesn’t everything really start and end with the title and getting that lead? Does it really matter whether people engage with the content because your sales team can follow up?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a great question. And it kind of goes to the core of what are we trying to accomplish with content with content that we’re sending out? You know, is it that we just want to get the names and emails of people who we think are interested in it? Or is it that we really want to know who is properly engaged, who is kind of, you know, using and, like, found our content useful, actually spent time with it actually kind of took some value from it? And yeah, I think that there’s kind of, there’s a place for lead gen where you are looking more at a surface level to say, well, who’s interested in this at all, but it comes down to also being able to prioritise those leads and say, Well, you know, are they really that qualified? If we have no idea what happened to them after they kind of initially downloaded that content? We don’t really know anything about The timing or how to follow up with them, or, you know, the priority that we should give them if we don’t have any additional kind of data on their actual engagement. So it just gives us kind of a higher quality, spin, I guess, to lead gen if you think about adding that on as a piece of intelligence. But more generally, I do think it’s important to assess the value of content and say, Well, what is really the value of this content we’re sending out, we really want people to read it. And that should be kind of the end goal. And if it’s not the end goal, it’s kind of, you know, content being utilised in different ways. But I would say there are other ways to do that, that aren’t necessarily creating a nice and really compelling piece of content.

Mike: So I love the fact that you’re talking about benefits, both for the reader in terms of more compelling content, but also for the marketer in terms of more data. So can you just unpack a little bit about, you know, what kind of data you can give marketers? And how they can use that to understand whether someone is a hot lead? Or maybe not quite such good luck?

Kate: Yeah, definitely. So I think the big difference is that it’s data after the that first kind of, you know, download, what you can see with a PDF is typically that someone downloaded the content. And that’s kind of where the journey ends, a lot of the time, it’s just like a straight up piece of static content. So what we want to provide as an alternative is data about how long people read for the different sections of the content that they actually read and engaged with versus those that they didn’t, and, you know, specific returns for each of those, we want to be able to link that to companies and individuals as much as possible. So we want to be able to see exactly who did that and what their individual level of engagement was. And I think crucially, we want to be able to pull all of those insights into our CRM in real time. And that’s what a lot of I mean, I’m in demand gen. So that’s kind of the gold standard, for me is real time engagement data that automatically gets synced into my CRM gets mapped against my lead scoring and can help to prioritise that without me ever needing to take a look at it. So ultimately, that integrated piece is really important. And that’s kind of where a content automation platform can come in, as is giving you all of that data against your own contacts and accounts, and then being able to sync that in real time. And yeah, I think for the people creating the content as well, just being able to actually take a look at how the content is performing, which sections of it work well, which sections of it don’t, being able to, you know, move things around or change things up as needed to test is super valuable, and not really something that content marketers have had access to until now. So just being able to optimise your content against the actual ways that people are engaging with it is really, really valuable.

Mike: That’s fascinating. I’ve got to ask this. Do you find some marketers pushback? Because they actually don’t want to know which bit of content isn’t working?

Kate: Yeah, I do think there is a lot of that mindset of just, you almost Yeah, you don’t don’t necessarily want to know what works. And I think an interesting application of that is companies who provide content for other companies. So whether it’s a syndicated piece of content or something like that, I think there’s a little bit of reluctance to actually have that data, because you might find out that the content didn’t work as well as you think it did. And you might have to report those results back. So there’s more transparency, which can be you know, it might shine a light on something that you don’t like, and I totally understand that perspective. But on the other hand, you know, you do want to know if your content isn’t working. And I think it’s really important. And from that maybe advertisers point of view, being able to, you know, I think people first of all are asking for it, like people want to know, is this content actually working? What’s the real value here? What am I really getting out of it. So you see people moving into different types of models to try to kind of pull more value out of content. But really, if you can show them and say, Hey, listen, this got this much engagement from your core audience that’s so much more valuable. And it actually does give you like, a really important data source that I think proves the value of content. So it shows you what might be wrong. But on the other hand, you’ve got a starting point to improve and actually start to prove the value of content as well. So I think it’s maybe a tough bandaid to rip off, but an important one.

And I think proving the value is a really important point as well, you know, people can actually show that particular content has been read rather than it’s just been sent. And maybe that that’s a great segue to something I think you teased earlier, which is, you talked about the things you lose when you send a PDF, I mean, we’re all sending PDFs at the moment, pretty much. And so, tell us what the problems are with delivering content as a PDF. Yeah.

So, um, you know, thinking back again to this idea of what we’re trying to accomplish with a piece of content, ultimately, we want people to read it. We want people to understand and ideally be kind of motivated and educated by it. Right? So, um, you know, it shouldn’t necessarily just be a vehicle to get an email address, it should be valuable and kind of really engaged with. So without some of those metrics, it’s hard to say how effective your content actually is. But, you know, actually, there are ways to find that out because we work with an independent research agency called lumen research. And they are doing a lot of research into this challenge of attention for marketers, so they’re looking at it in different ways. And they use a combination of eye tracking studies and kind of some mixed methods survey data to understand this challenge of attention. And they’re kind of putting out a lot of research around, you know, how are we actually gathering attention online? And what does that mean? So they studied digital formats, and they took the PDF and turtle doc, they put the same content in both of those formats. And they ran eye tracking studies and survey data to find out like, what is the engagement, that that’s kind of happening across both of these formats. And the findings were pretty startling, actually, they found out that the PDF loses out on 90%, of possible engagement when compared to the turtle dock. So just due to the fact that it’s not interactive, it’s not in a format designed around psychology, and it’s not responsive, they were looking at mobile as well, it loses out on quite a bit of engagement. So you know, if you put that into context, every time you send out a PDF, via your kind of paid lead gen campaign, you are losing out on 90% of potential engagement. And you know, going back to the real value, if you’re if you are really wanting to engage your readers there, you’re missing out, I think if you send out PDFs,

Mike: Fascinating, so I love that about being responsive about it being interactive. But the other thing that turtle offices personalization, so how important is personalization, in terms of grabbing reader’s attention? Yeah,

Kate: I mean, there’s a lot of stats that speak to this kind of the power of personalization, I think some of the key value that I’ve kind of, um, you know, been most interested in and followed is this idea of increasing customer loyalty and sort of upsell opportunities. There’s some stats around how it improves engagement, you know, from various companies who have their own form of personalization. So I think at a high level, it’s something that marketers kind of know, and understand and recognise the need for, you know, there’s this idea, even at the heart of marketing, that if you’re marketing to everyone, you’re marketing to no one. So personalization is effectively, you know, marketing in a lot of ways. But what we need to be able to do, of course, particularly in b2b is do that. But for so many different personas, so many different types of buyers who are all in different places, in terms of their timing, their interests, their requirements. So without personalization, and what I mean by that is sort of being able to personalise the right message for all of those different people at the right time. You know, it’s very hard to market, especially in b2b. So I think it’s something that is sort of a necessity for b2b marketers, in a lot of ways. So the question is, how are we going to do it? And how are we actually going to achieve this level of personalization that we know we need?

Mike: I guess that that’s a great question to throw back at you is, I mean, what works in personalization, you know, you see some people doing simple things like just putting the customer’s company name onto a document. And you see other people basically changing the content to try and reflect an individual’s interest. And then you’ve got pretty much everything in between with names and things like that. I mean, what do you think works? And how much time should a marketer be investing in personalization versus generating the content originally?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, so I think of personalization as going beyond that surface level. So I do think the surface level of personalising it for that person is important, at least in terms of grabbing their attention, right. So you’ve got a little bit of, you know, you have some stats around how people respond to their first name, and how people kind of respond when something is made. For them specifically, there’s just an extra bit of attention that they’ll pay to that. So at that level, you know, even if it is just that level of personalization, I think it can kind of uplift what you’re trying to do. However, I think where it really becomes more meaningful is when you have that added layer of syncing up the data and the insight you have on people with the right content to send them and you know, that can look like a lot of different things that could be the right piece of content. Or you could get a little bit more granular and say it’s actually the right combination of content pulled together for them, you know, so there’s different ways to do it. And I think when you think about the time to invest, you know, I always suggest starting with what you have available and trying things out seeing what works best seeing what actually moves the needle, you know, testing, whether it’s testing out trying the first name and trying that out, you know that there Ways to kind of establish whether something works and then dive in a little bit further when you find out that it does work. So, you know, for us, we’ve run quite a few different tests on let’s try it with just the first name versus not, let’s try it with the right content versus not. So there’s there’s always different ways to kind of engage with personalization. But for me, the most meaningful level is when you combine, it’s made for them, and it has the right content for them sent at the right time. Crucially, it’s very much relying on your data, to give you that insight and be able to then send it off in real time that say, I really like this idea in data, and I guess in like, kind of workflow management of the next best action. So based on what they’re doing, and the signal that you have, what’s the next best thing you can send them and that starts when you think about like a personalised buyer journey. If you take it to the high level, you’re kind of trying to build their own journey that sends them the right content at the right time, with maybe their name and a video for them on it, that’s great. But the kind of heart of it is sending it at the right time with the right message.

Mike: And that’s interesting, you talk about you know that the right content the right time, and obviously, turtle, I think is known for creating the right content, customising the content for each individual. How do you get the right time is that by integrating with other systems like marketing automation?

Kate: Yeah, that’s exactly it. So it’s it’s very much about integrations and using the data that you already have to be able to deliver something very timely and relevant. Um, there’s another interesting way to do it as well, though, which I think is actually delivering content that people can engage with and give you data back. So having more of a conversation and making it a little bit more collaborative, let’s say you don’t necessarily know what exactly they’re interested in at that time, you know, you can just ask them and use, we call it public personalization. But it’s basically delivering content that can be customised in real time by that reader to create exactly what they need on demand. So timing, I think can be both ways, your own data, integrating that and using, let’s say, rules and workflows to determine, like, at this time, as soon as they do this, let’s send them this personalised piece of content, or flipping it back and saying, like, let’s send them this content, and they can determine what the best thing that they need to see right now is so making it more of an on demand experience.

Mike: I mean, I’m intrigued by this public personalization. So presumably, you’re doing a lot more than just sending a PDF and hoping person goes to page 103, if that’s what they’re interested in. So can you just unpack a little bit about how this works, and how a reader would choose the content that’s relevant to them?

Kate: Definitely. So I’ll give a couple of examples. One of them is, with Amazon ads, their marketing team, and they were looking to send out content just before their busy kind of shopping season to across our customer base, they identified six different audiences with that they kind of needed different pieces of information. And they had to actually put it into nine different languages as well. So it was a pretty big kind of content challenge in front of them, where they needed, you know, really timely information, they didn’t necessarily have the data to say exactly what each person would need. But they knew they had kind of six different audiences that they wanted to deliver it to. So they decided to use public personalization, to give them the kind of, you know, way to sift through that and actually find the right information very easily. So basically, that looks like setting up the content behind the scenes, in a modular way. And using a form at the top of that. So kind of an engaging user facing form where they’re asked a few questions to self segment, really, they can be questions, as fun or as you know, like practical as need be really depends in Amazon’s case, I think it was asking about, you know, what type of vendor they are, the type of information that they needed, you know, going into the shopping season, and then it delivers them a personalised piece of content on demand. So they’ve got that piece of content that has just the right information for them. It’s actually localised automatically as well. So it’s in their language, and, you know, something that they can hold on to bookmark save, it’s their own kind of piece of content, because it’s a personalised ID for them. So they’ve now got a fully personalised piece of content. So, you know, Amazon was able to deliver against these pretty tight timelines content to six different audiences, nine languages, and it’s, you know, they seen some really impressive engagement figures from that. So I think that’s basically the core of it, you know, as an example, just this idea of, you know, understanding your audience, giving them the choice, letting them fill in and kind of make their own choose your own content journey, let’s say, and then you actually get that insight back as well. So that data can be fed back into their CRM. Now they know a little bit more about that segment of customers. So the next time they send a piece of content, they’ve got that as a reference point. Okay, last time they selected as a vendor, I’m going to keep them on this vendor track and send them the next best piece of content to follow up with.

Mike: So that public personalization is a great way to profile contacts.

Kate: Exactly. Yeah, definitely. If you don’t know, like, if you kind of have the challenge of like, we’ve got a huge email list and we don’t know is interested, giving people the chance to actually yeah, opt in and say, Yo, I’m interested in this is great.

Mike: Cool. That’s great. I I’m interested as well. I mean, one of the things I think the people who are, you know, still wedded to PDFs will say is, well, what about printing? You know, you mentioned bookmarking. But what about if somebody wants to print out some turtle content? Is that possible? Or do you lose all the benefits?

Kate: Yeah, it is possible. And, you know, it’s possible to download turtle as a PDF as well. So we’re not, we’re not forcing people not to do that. It’s definitely possible. I think, you know, there’s also the idea that if you really want to kind of have a print version of your content, you could put it into a print version, and, you know, publish that and maybe have a digital version as well. I think that’s totally possible. Obviously, print is still, you know, an important medium that people use and kind of want to want to, you know, reference and print out and totally get that. That being said, I think, you know, the digital world evolves so quickly and being able to update things in real time. So things don’t go out of date is, you know, from a marketer’s perspective, I think much more important than kind of having something that’s immediate. I mean, you could print a turtle lock, I guess, why not?

Mike: It’d be crazy. But. Yeah. And then, at the other end, I mean, obviously, a lot of marketers are seeing some good results with video. So are you doing anything with video, particularly video personalization?

Kate: Yeah, video is really an interesting use case. So we partnered with a company called video card and I think some other solutions as well to embed personalised videos in personalised content. So for example, our sales and SDR team have the ability to record their video or video for a prospect or for an account, and then upload it into their personalised turtle doc and send out that whole thing. So it’s got their video on the cover, and then it’s got the relevant content for them contained within. So I think being able to do that, first of all, to just enable your sales team and on a one to one basis, they can send that out. But also thinking about more scale, you know, you can do you can take an account based approach and have an SDR record a video for an account and then, you know, set that up at an account level to be sent out to all the all the individuals. Yeah, I think videos is definitely a good kind of tool to use. And that kind of links back to the value of interactive content as well. I mean, being able to embed things like videos and polls and, you know, different pieces of interactivity that can be, you know, changed around and moved and engaged with adds a lot to the content as well.

Mike: That’s fascinating. And it sounds like you’ve got, you’ve got quite a lot of integrations. You’ve talked about integration with Mark automation, you’ve talked about integrating with video to incorporate video. Are there any other integrations that help marketers, you know, make use of turtle more more effectively or with less investment of time?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, I think the main integrations that we’re really focused on is, you know, thinking about the, the marketing tech stack, but also the sales tech stack. So I think what we’re really interested in is kind of like the tech stack across the buyer journey, I would say, from the marketing teams perspective, we integrate with CRMs, we integrate with marketing automation tools. So being able to, you know, centralise all your content data in a CRM, or maybe a customer data platform, that’s all possible, and then being able to deliver it via marketing automation. So you can push the data into that and, you know, be able to deliver it automatically, you know, personalization at scale through marketing automation, as well. We’re also really interested in ABM platforms. So thinking about the ABM tech stack and being able to kind of, you know, gather account inside and then push that into turtle to personalise content, you know, I think there’s there’s quite a few integrations is is absolutely where we’re headed with content automation, because in order to get your content out into the world, to get into the hands of the right people, you really do have to rely on the whole kind of biotech stack. And then I think in terms of adding like additional layers of engagement, there’s like videocard, and tools like drift, which allow you to maybe embedded chatbot in it and add a different experience or engage people in a different way. That’s very much conversational content. So there’s different types of integrations kind of adding to the engagement of the content, but then also just thinking about the whole content production workflow and how you get it out to people simplifying, streamlining and making that much more automated.

Mike: Wow, is that there’s a lot there all over the place. I love the idea of a document that has chatted bedded that’s very cool. Yeah. and perhaps the most interesting thing that I think you said was you talked about market automation and CRM. So presumably, Turtle documents are basically the thing that qualifies contacts to become sales leads for a lot of your customers is that is that what you see happening? People are using engagement with the document to say, this is now sales ready?

Kate: It can be I think it has to be layered with other types of data that you have about your contact, of course. But what we do see is some interesting ways to use gates. So getting away from the kind of traditional, you fill in a content form, you’re kind of engaged and you get passed over to sales, I think what we’re seeing is people who are trying to find out, you know, yeah, qualify that lead a little bit further before handing it over? Or maybe maybe it’s just part of the journey. You know, it really depends on the type of content and your other data, of course, but I really like some of the different uses of gates that people are doing, whether it’s to add in, you know, Midway gates to say, here’s some added value, do you want to sign up for a webinar on this? Do you want to sign up for a newsletter? Do you want to sign up for this ecourse we have, and that just kind of helps to nurture people along, immediately, making them more of a qualified lead, or maybe it is adding kind of a demo form or a way to get in touch with sales into your content as well, where it’s relevant, I think, you know, there’s different ways to think about that.

Mike: Awesome. That’s, that’s, that’s really interesting, lots of opportunities there. So, I mean, if people are excited about this, and thinking, you know, I’d love to be able to do something I love to better create interaction. I mean, what are their alternatives? I know, I’ve seen some people create more interactive documents using Adobe Spark, which obviously isn’t personalised, but, you know, give gives you some degree of interactivity, what would you advise people to do? If they were, they were wondering what the first step to take would be?

Kate: Well, I think in terms of creating that interactive content, you probably do need a platform of some kind to, you know, allow you to pull that all together, I think there are probably ways to do it, for instance, using your web, you know, web platform to just try out different interactive elements. For instance, if you just want to start somewhere, and for instance, try out different things, you know, different ways to embed videos and things like that in your blog, of course, you can always start there. But yeah, you know, I also think interactive content, it’s an interesting, it’s very broad term in some way. I mean, you could try starting with social posts, you know, put a poll around, you know, something and see what you get back and start to just engage more with your audience in different ways. And you’ll start to see the value of that, I think so interactive content in terms of the what we think about with like a turtle dock, that’s one way to do it, where your content, like your long form, content itself, is quite interactive, engaging all the way throughout. But as you know, if you just want to start to engage more with your audience, and learn more about them, and get them, build more of a two way conversation, start on social stir on your blog, you know, try out different ways to kind of get feedback from your audience, and get them to Yeah, comment, you know, answer a poll, watch a video, whatever it is.

Mike: That’s cool. That’s that that sounds like a, you know, we shouldn’t stress too much about starting, we should just really start and try to be more interactive. I mean, treat them as if somebody starts and they gain traction on the poll, and people are watching more videos, and they decide they need to take the next step to, you know, to content automation platform. I mean, that, to me feels like quite a big step. And I know a lot of enterprises have had migrations to marketing automation platforms that have taken, not just months, but sometimes years. How much of a challenge? Is it to migrate across to a content automation platform? Does that have a lot of pain? Or is that something, you know, you could be producing content very quickly.

Kate: So you can produce content very quickly, we have what we had what we call our content automation maturity model, which is essentially to say that there’s a journey between starting and producing your first piece of interactive content all the way down to having a really sophisticated kind of fully integrated content system that at the hub of it is this, you know, great engaging content. So there’s, there’s, you know, a lot of points along that journey. And I think starting where you are is super important to say like, we always kind of encourage, you know, start just start somewhere, right. So wherever you’re at in terms of the level of resource and kind of complexity that you have already and want to introduce, I think that there will be kind of a meaningful starting point along that content automation maturity model. But essentially, what it might look like is, you know, at its core turtle is a better, more engaging format that allows you to really quickly produce interactive content so you can start putting more content out and you can start already getting that feedback from your audience in terms of what they’re interested in the title content that you should make more of how to improve it, and you start getting data back as well. So you start learning a little bit more about your audience. And you know, you can pretty easily integrate that and connect it up to say, Okay, I’ve learned a little bit more about my audience now. So what do I do with that, um, so then that’s kind of where personalization comes in, where you can say, well, we’ve got all this great data, let’s structure it, let’s, you know, use what we can to actually create maybe the, you know, send people the next best piece of content, or customise their journey a little bit, or start to add in elements that will particularly be interesting to them. And then, you know, getting even further, you can look to fully integrate other pieces of your tech stack, like your customer data, like your, you know, CRM and marketing automation. So, you know, it’s always just this thing that kind of builds any learn along the way, you gather insight along the way. And you’re able to do more advanced personalization along the way, as well. Like maybe at the beginning, you just start out by doing let’s do an account base personalization campaign, where we just sort of pick a few industry segments, personalised each of those and send it out great, you know, that’s a really good starting point, because you can learn a lot, you can kind of get feedback, and from there, you might make it a little bit more complex and more tailored next time. So yeah, always gonna be a journey. But you know, it’s, it’s great to great to get started on the journey.

Mike: I love the fact that you’re, you’re coming on the podcast as a vendor, and you’re not saying, buy our product, and then you’re done. You’re actually saying, Well, you can start before you buy our product, there’s things you can do. And once you buy the product, there’s still this journey to go on. And still these things you can do I love that as a way to, you know, see how you can always keep getting better. That’s fantastic. And I guess, you know, people listening to this, you know, will have seen turtle may have seen turtle they know that turtle, I mean, historically, I think has been very strong in the enterprise. And what about sort of midsize smaller companies? Is that something you think content automation platforms are going to service? Or is this going to really be the preserve of very large enterprises?

Kate: Yeah, I mean, we, like I said, you know, if you think about that journey, right, I think a lot of small to medium businesses can definitely benefit pretty quickly from being able to create more engaging, more interactive content. And that’s definitely something we’re seeing in our customer base. So we do have a kind of mid market proposition. And we’ve got quite a few customers who are using turtle to simply create better, more engaging content, you know, and I think that’s, honestly, you know, that that can be a great and in some customers who really, that’s kind of their bread and butter, and that’s, that’s what really works for them. And that might be, you know, where their content automation journey stops for now, you know, let’s see. And then we’ve got other kind of customers coming in. And actually, they do have quite a bit of data and quite a bit of, you know, aspiration to personalise, and there’s this real interest in it. So I think there’s a segment of businesses who are really, really interested in doing more with that. So, yeah, there’s there’s absolutely a lot of different ways to engage with turtle, but depending on where you’re at, in the size of business, you know, might depend where you’re at on that journey.

Mike: Awesome. That’s amazing. So I mean, we’re running out of time, I’m really intrigued to know you’ve given us some really great advice. But you know, do you have like three top tips for people who are looking to make their content better?

Kate: Three top tips. Okay. So I think the first one would be user data. I know data is something that we all talk about. And I think we tend to try and use it, but I’m not I don’t know, I have a feeling that content in particular is it is an arena where we could think more about the data on what what people are interested in, and what we should kind of serve them up next, using all this great data that we have as marketers, I think the second one would be turning your content into a conversation, you know, thinking about interactivity, and maybe the very beginning of that is just how can you open it up and make it something that, you know, instead of you’re broadcasting content at people, it’s like, you’re sort of asking for feedback in various ways, whether that’s just collecting information about how they engage with it, or whether that’s directly asking a poll or, you know, maybe maybe a personalization for power advance, I guess, but just thinking about different ways where you can start to turn it into something where you’re getting feedback and giving people the chance to feed into what you’re doing as well, because ultimately, our audience kind of knows best what they want to see and read about and hear. And I think there’s a lot of ways that we can think about turning content into a conversation. And I guess a final point would be if we go back to this idea of lead gen and what the value of content is, I always prioritise quality and saying that content at its core should be really engaging. So I don’t really hold with the idea that we can get away with just sort of, we got their email and we’ll call it a day I really think that, you know, we really need to think about what is the value behind the content that we’re putting out there? Is it resonating? Is it really working? Is it getting people? Like, is it doing what we want? Is it getting people like very interested or motivated or inspired or whatever it is? And I think there’s a little bit of interrogation that we can do there.

Mike: That’s brilliant. So, I mean, data interaction and quality are the three things. I think that’s a great message. Thank you so much for the advice and the tips. Is there anything else you feel we should have covered? Or we’ve missed during our conversation?

Kate: No, I mean, I think I think it was a really interesting conversation. Thanks so much, Mike. Again, yeah. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I think we talked through quite a few different interesting topics. So always happy to dive in further with anyone who is interested.

Mike: That’d be amazing. I mean, if somebody did want to come to educate, what would be the best way for them to go about that?

Kate: Yeah, I think LinkedIn is the best way. If you search for Kate Terry Turtle to you, RTL, you will probably find me. But that’s definitely where I’m most active socially. And we’d be happy to have a chat and yeah, speak further about it.

Mike: Well, thanks so much for all your time and insight. It’s been fascinating. Thanks for being on the podcast. Kate. Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.