Hardware Pioneers Max 2021 Postponed to September

Hardware Pioneers Max 2021 has been postponed to 23rd September 2021, due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Aimed at connecting technology and service providers operating in the IoT development sector, the event was due to take place on the 3rd June 2021 at the Business Design Centre in London.

Due to the roadmap of restrictions being lifted in the UK, the new date should allow technical decision-makers and entrepreneurs working in IoT to network and attend the event in person.

With more details due to be released shortly, we will look forward to seeing the return of 'physical' events, and the response from the industry.

For more information on the event and how you can attend, please click here.  

A Napier Podcast: Interview with Olivia Kenney - LeadSift

We are delighted to share the latest interview from Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast.

In our latest episode, we interview Olivia Kenney, Marketing Manager at LeadSift, a sales intelligence platform that generates qualified leads using intent signals. Olivia shares how LeadSift helps B2B marketers solve everyday issues, and how intent data can be used to get ahead of competitors and generate a higher quality of leads rather than a large quantity of leads.

To listen to the interview and to stay up to date when a new episode is live, click one of the below links to subscribe:

Transcript: Interview with Olivia Kenney

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Olivia Kenney

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to the latest episode of marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm with Olivia Kenny, who is a marketing manager at lead sift. Welcome to the podcast. Olivia.

Olivia: Hi, Mike, thank you for having me.

Mike: Thanks so much for coming on. I mean, I'm really interested, you know, can you just give me a bit of background about your career, and what's led you to working at lead sift. So,

Olivia: I've always been very interested in technology and b2b technology, specifically, starting with my last role, which was at kewra, which was another b2b technology companies specifically in engineering requirements, software. And they're I really got a deep glimpse into the challenges behind lead generation, and specifically, the balance between quality and quantity. And it's a lot easier to get a lot of quantity than quality, of course, which is why the opportunity that came from me at lead sift was so exciting, because it's really an opportunity to solve the problems that I was dealing with every day as a b2b marketer. And now with leads that I get to work really closely with the demand generation strategies, and with our customer marketing strategies, and things like that, and it's been really great.

Mike: Awesome, I mean, I love the thought of getting better quality leads, I think, every market has been frustrated with sending a batch of leads across the sales, and then just getting the reply. They're all rubbish. So how do you do it? I mean, what does lead Sif do to ensure that marketers generate that higher quality of lead?

Olivia: Yeah, that's a great question. So at least if we mined the public web for signals that people are looking to buy, so this can be anything from social media, to job boards, to public forums, and we can scrape this information, find intent signals, and then we can actually tie that back to a specific person showing intent. And then we work closely with our customers to figure out their ICP who they're trying to target down to the job title. And then we deliver that that data to them.

Mike: Great. So you talk about intent? Can you just give us some examples to explain what you mean by intent or intent data?

Olivia: Sure. So intent really is any signal that someone is actively in market or looking to buy. So that could be anything from engaging with one of your competitors, hiring signals, adding any technology, anything that shows that they might either be thinking of making a decision, or recently got budget or anything like that, that would put them in the buyers journey.

Mike: Okay. And you're talking about the public web. So you're looking at social media for that, or looking broader.

Olivia: Yeah, social media is a big part of it, but it does go broader. So social media, anything that you could find, manually, we can just do it at a much larger scale. So social media, public forums, job boards, websites, anything like that.

Mike: Interesting. And, I mean, the thing I found fascinating about your website was you talk about intent data at the contact level, can you just explain what other people are doing and then then what you mean by contact level intent data?

Olivia: Sure. So to start kind of out as as a broader seen other companies in the space can find intent signals at a company level. So they can tell you, for example, someone that IBM is, in market to buy. The difference is that leads if we can tell you, the director of data science at IBM is looking to buy. And this is so valuable, because it really narrows it down and make sure you're a talking to someone that is in your ICP, and be talking to the actual person that is interested in in market so that you're not playing a guessing game of who is the right person to reach out to.

Mike: And presumably, when you look at bigger companies like IBM, I mean, that's really important because IBM so big, there's probably someone in IBM looking to buy almost anything at any one time. Is that is that is that the challenge people come up with?

Olivia: Yeah, that's exactly it's so hard to know, who is looking at what so we're able to actually narrow it down and say, and often it's more than one person, which is great because that's a stronger signal of intent. But it's really great to be able to narrow it down and not only tell you who but also be able to tell you what their email addresses how you can reach them, their LinkedIn profile, all of the necessary information including exactly what signal of intent we found for that specific person.

Mike: Okay, and you talked a lot about ICP. So the ideal customer profile. Are you filtering all the signals of intent down to just providing the the People who are who fit that customer profile? Or are you doing something a bit more? Maybe, you know, helping companies understand who their ICP should actually be?

Olivia: Yeah, that's a great question. So we work to narrow down to your ideal customer profile. So you give us all of that criteria, all those criteria, and then we look at these companies that fit, also your ICP, so the industries you're looking to sell to the size of company, location. And then it's not a way to determine your ICP, it's a way to target them. So we provide data that matches your pre existing ICP.

Mike: Perfect, so you've got to understand who you're trying to sell to, because that's one of the ways you filter this intent data. Is that is that the right understanding of it?

Olivia: That's exactly right. And there are instances where, for example, a company might be showing intent. And it's not necessarily the specific person in your ICP and the specific persona that you're looking for. And in that case, we can give additional contacts within that organisation that do fit your ICP so that you're always reaching out to the person that is the best fit for you.

Mike: Great, great. I mean, one of the things I've heard about in 10 data is actually it's just lead scoring. Is that right? Or are you doing something very different?

Olivia: Yeah, that’s, that’s a great question. So intent data can definitely be an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to lead scoring. It's definitely something that should be used and majorly considered. But it's so much bigger than that, especially when you're looking at the contact level. It is super actionable. In terms of email outreach, ad targeting ABM for prioritisation and personalization. So, as much as I do think it is important to us in your scoring, and we actually provide an intent score specifically with each lead. It's, it's really an integral part of our marketing strategy. And I actually consider it as its own channel alongside organic or direct or paid spent.

Mike: Interesting. And does that mean that what you're doing is you're actually generating a lot of very time specific data with with intense I mean, is that is that the big difference? You know, people are showing they want to buy now rather than, you know, perhaps have an interest in a product and maybe in a year's time?

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Timing is everything. And it's a really great way to be able to action leads, while they're relevant while they're looking. And before they choose one of your competitors. Basically.

Mike: I think that's a great point. I mean, we talk to our clients a lot about, you know, speed through the funnel. And, of course, the big issue is if a client chooses a competitor doesn't matter how good your marketing is, if you're too late, you're never going to win. And I think, you know, that that's a great use of intent data.

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. And we can tell you, specifically, when someone is engaging with one of your competitors, that you can kind of swoop in and beat them to the punch.

Mike: Wow. So you find out how people are engaging? How, How'd you do that? I mean, I guess you're not, you're not spying on them or waiting for them to call, you're looking at what they're doing on the web. Is that right?

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. And there are definitely some nuances to it. As much as I wish this happened. Most people don't just raise their hand and say, Hi, I want to buy your product. I'm talking to a competitor XYZ. Here I am, email me. Unfortunately, that is not how it works. But we can look at signals based on social media engagements, following comments, things like that, that are publicly available. And then we can determine based on those and other signals, that someone is engaging with your competitor.

Mike: Great, so. So maybe we can make this more tangible and understand, you know, what, what a signal would be I mean, if you're, for example, looking for a marketing agency, I mean, what are the things that lead Sif would pick up on you doing on the web, that would show that you've got intent to hire a marketing agency? Sure.

Olivia: So there are a number of things that could be engaging with your competitors, or engaging with topics surrounding your use cases. That's really the way I like to frame our keyword search is less about what you provide and more about what you sell for. And then some other options would be like your hiring signal. So for example, if you were looking to sell to an agency, you might see that they just hired a new marketing manager or something like that the person that would be your key user, and that would show that they probably have new budget and a need for a new tool. So that's a perfect opportunity to kind of swoop in and know exactly who to reach out to within that company.

Mike: Interesting. So I guess in a way, people who use LinkedIn Sales Navigator get like very basic sort of intent data because they'll get these new hires appearing in their feed is that is that a similar concept or be a little bit similar?

Olivia: Yeah, that's that's a similar concept, definitely, we can do it just more at scale, and then with the contact data on top of that, so it's definitely something that really goes well, when you have tools like Sales Navigator to work in tandem with intent data.

Mike: Cool. Okay. Um, so how does a marketer work with leads? If I mean, I mean, do they just turn up and say, you know, these are the companies I'm targeting? This is this is my customer profile in terms of job title. And these are the things that relate to my industry, the keywords?

Olivia: Yeah, like, that's a great starting point, it definitely depends on their use case. For example, me personally, I, I use our data, of course, in my own marketing strategies. And one of my favourite ways is to use it for ad targeting, because it can be super hard to target in b2b, through ad platforms to reach the actual people that you want to. So yeah, so you determine what your use case is going to be. You figure out your keywords, your competitors, location, give all that to us, we build your campaign, and then you start receiving the data.

Mike: And how does that data appear? Is that a list of companies you should approach or you really just down to, you know, directly giving the contact?

Olivia: Yeah, we give full contact level data. And that can either come as a CSV or directly into someone's here, I'm a marketing automation tool, which makes it super actionable, and easy to track. But yeah, we give everything first name, last name, industry, job title, LinkedIn, profile, URL, email, phone number, really any contact level information you can think of?

Mike: And that sounds like that's, that's pretty much sales ready? I mean, do you see the marketers, you know, running lead sift to generate the leads, and then they, they get handed off to sales or marketers doing more with the leads before they consider themselves qualified.

Olivia: I always recommend multi-touch approach. So I think the best way to do it is to get as many touch points as possible. So that includes running ads to make sure people are aware of you sending them marketing, nurture, emails, things like that even sometimes building your content strategy around engagements that you're seeing, but then simultaneously giving those leads to your sales team. And then in a more personalised way, reaching out to them is the best way to see success.

Mike: I love that idea. So you're saying that you can watch the your competitors content, find out what prospects are engaging with, and then create the content that excites the prospects is that is that that what you're saying?

Olivia: Exactly. And even seeing the topics that they're most often engaging with, and even down to? Okay, my leads in this industry are specifically super interested in this one topic. We don't have a tonne of topic or content about that. So let's produce them and make sure that we're giving them exactly what they're looking for. Because we have that insight now.

Mike: Perfect. And you mentioned that people use lead sift in tandem with LinkedIn on LinkedIn Sales Navigator. In terms of the other activities, are they also working, you know, alongside an advertising platform? I mean, what are the sort of other tools that tie into your lead sift campaign?

Olivia: Yeah, so we have quite a few integrations with CRM and marketing, automation tools. Specifically, Salesforce is our is our biggest direct integration. And then we also work, you can always leave in most of the common ad platforms. So anywhere that you can upload a list to create an audience, you can easily access. So Google ads, Facebook, LinkedIn, ad roll, really, wherever you're building your audiences, you can build ads campaigns to specifically reach those people. And actually, for ads campaigns, specifically, we give up to five emails per contact. And those include personal emails instead of just the business emails that we provide in our other campaigns. And that's to increase our match rates on the outs platforms, because most people aren't signing up for LinkedIn with their athletes. yp.com or whatever their work email is.

Mike: Interesting. So you're doing what some of the ABM platforms are doing and matching personal or business emails together within your own leadership platform.

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. Just to increase the match rates on those platforms.

Mike: Awesome. So. So in terms of approach, you know, it all sounds very easy, but is there kind of a best practice approach or a process people should go through to really make lead generation effective?

Olivia: Yeah, definitely, I think when it comes to lead generation, multi touch approach is always the best way to go. Making sure people are aware of who you are, before they get those sales emails is one of the easiest ways to make sure that they're ready for you to talk to them, because you don't want to jump the gun and go into early and then turn them off from what you're trying to sell to them. So I think a multi touch approach is definitely a best practice when it comes to lead generation and really knowing your ICP Making sure you have those processes in place to understand who your most successful customers are and targeting people like that. So that it's all about quality over quantity.

Mike: Yeah, I love that you're back to that quality over quantity, I think something that, that every marketer, and also every salesperson would love to hear. So that's great. I am interested to know, I mean, one of the things that obviously concerns people listen to the podcast in Europe is GDPR. I mean, how, how easy or difficult is it for you to be GDPR compliant?

Olivia: Sure, so leads were actually GDPR compliant because of something called reasonable interest. So since we're mining this from the public web, and it's all publicly available data, we can determine that people are interested enough that you're allowed to reach out to them, obviously, making sure you still have an unsubscribe button and things like that, to be compliant are super important. But in terms of GDPR, with the contact data, it's all actionable within compliance.

Mike: And the reason that you're able to claim legitimate interest, presumably, is because you're so targeted, you're so specific, you know, these people are, are reasonable targets to go after.

Olivia: Exactly. So since we can say, well, this person did this specific action on LinkedIn publicly, we're allowed to then target that person.

Mike: That's, I mean, that's great. And I think that's, that's probably very reassuring for a lot of potential European customers. I mean, tricks like do you do you get a lot of pushback from potential customers worried about GDPR? Or when they understand the process to do they? Do they, you know, accept it and feel confident that there's no issue?

Olivia: Yeah, I mean, we definitely have people, especially in the early stages, that have had concerns, but it's all about how you action the data, so as long as you're acting in a compliant way, and sometimes that means like, sending sales emails first, before sending bigger marketing emails, and targeting them with ads first, and letting them come to you. There are ways to make sure it is like as seamlessly compliant as possible. So once people understand that process, and do it that way, then it's worked really well.

Mike: Interesting. Um, are there particular industries where lead sift is more effective? I mean, it seems like, like maybe some industries, you'd be more likely to engage in discussion about them than perhaps others.

Olivia: Yeah, so our the main people that we targeted the main people that we see having the most excessively, except our other b2b technology companies, usually in the middle, like mid range, like 50 to 5000 employees, even that mid range, and b2b Tech has really seen a lot of success with leads.

Mike: And that's presumably for a couple reasons. Firstly, tech, because people tend to engage with content around technology on social media, so you can see the intent visibly. And secondly, because if you're an IBM, people who can afford to buy from you probably come to you anyway. So there's, there's less value is that? Is that a reasonable understanding of why it's that mid range?

Olivia: Yeah, you could say that I think it definitely. The b2b space is, first of all super important because we're providing other businesses data, and tech, I think it's just the nature of how marketing strategies unfold in b2b tech. It's a lot of ads, email outreach, things like that, that is really cohesive with what we do. The other audience that actually has seen a lot of success with lead sift our b2b marketing services company, so anyone doing any kind of lead generation content syndication, appointment setting, they've really seen a lot of success with leads of by using it to add value to their clients packages, and booking more ICP meetings for them.

Mike: Fascinating. And then presumably, if you look at things like the military sector there people have not engaging publicly, and it's not really a market for for lead sift.

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Mike: No, that makes sense. So. So it's great that most people listening to the podcast in the b2b tech market. So we've definitely got the right guest on today. And I think people who've listened to this, I mean, they'll be fascinated, they'll be thinking, well, it doesn't sound very hard to do. It certainly makes sense to me. And the idea of quality over quantity is something that I think more or less all marketers or salespeople, as I said would be, you know, would be delighted to hear so I guess the next question everyone's gonna ask is, is it a super expensive technology then?

Olivia: It's, it's not it's not we don't charge per lead or anything like that. It's a standard monthly rate. It typically starts around 15 $100 a month and you have unlimited leads with that.

Mike: Wow. So that more use The more value you get from the platform.

Olivia: Exactly, exactly.

Mike: So yeah, so very reasonably priced. And then you say it starts from that to people then buy more features more capabilities, or do they buy support and consulting? I mean, how would people spend more money?

Olivia: Sure, that is a great question. So one of the ways that it might be more than 1500 is if you need additional categories, or you have additional use cases, for things like that it's, it really changes based on use case, and how much data you need specifically,

Mike: Absolutely makes sense. If you're a big industrial conglomerate with, you know, 20 different markets you're addressing, they're all completely different, then you're going to need much more in terms of support from lead sift, than you would if you're a very focused tech company, just selling one product, one market.

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. So we often sort our data by category, and you get a certain number of categories when you sign up. And if you need more, or, for example, if you are an agency using us or a partner of ours reselling our data, then that obviously scales that way.

Mike: Absolutely. Absolutely. Makes sense. So I guess, you know, we're coming towards the end of the interview, I'm going to be cheeky, you've obviously done a lot of lead generation, you've seen a lot of lead generation. So other than using lead safe, which I think goes without saying as being a top tip for improving lead generation. And do you have any other ideas or thoughts about how b2b companies can actually do a better job in terms of lead generation, and particularly in terms of improving quality?

Olivia: Definitely, I think something really important that I've learned more and more over the last year is not getting caught up in attribution. It's so hard to track attribution, especially in its space. For example, we had a lead come in about a week ago. And the way they found us was one of their colleagues had seen one of our ads, they were calling didn't click it, we never could have traced it back to them. And then he told his colleague about it, who then searched us and it looked like the lead came in through direct traffic, even though it did originally from an ad. But it's so hard to know exactly where leads are coming from, I think it's more important. Like the bottom line is more important for me, at the end of the day, as a b2b marketer, revenue is number one. So if that means I put more ad spend in and I see organic, increased direct traffic increase, just an across the board increase, I value that because a lot of times you can spend more on ads, and you don't necessarily see an uptick in leads from ads. So I think not getting caught up in attribution is really important. And another important thing in b2b marketing is understand that marketing doesn't end when someone becomes a customer. It's a full cycle. And your messaging just changes as people travel through the buyers journey. But marketing doesn't stop.

Mike: I think particularly the the comment about attribution, people will love I know, my experiences as a marketer is even when you can produce really clear evidence of you know, how that prospects engaged, the lead will go to sales, and it will be entirely down to a sales relationship. And anything we'll have done, if the lead turns out to be a big customer will be completely irrelevant. So the fact we don't have to stress about that, I think it's really great.

Olivia: Definitely, I think more people are starting to understand that which is, which is great to see.

Mike: So, I mean, I guess the other question is, what do people do wrong? I mean, do you see any any consistent mistakes that people should avoid?

Olivia: Yeah, I think sometimes people can get caught up in models and frameworks, and kind of an analysis paralysis, where they spend so much time trying to make sure that they're doing the right thing that they don't end up doing anything. So I think it's more important to just do something, learn from that iterate on that process. And if it doesn't work, fail fast.

Mike: Brilliant, that's fantastic advice. So having listened to this, if people feel that, you know, lead sift might be a great product for them, they want to improve the quality of the leads, they want leads to arrive when when customers are ready to buy, I mean, how would they go about evaluating the lead Sif platform, and really, you know, getting to the point where they know whether or not it's the right product for them?

Olivia: Sure. So the best way to do that would be to go to our website, which is Leadsift.com and book a demo. Alternatively, you can find me on LinkedIn, Olivia Kenny, and ask me any questions and we can take the conversation from there.

Mike: Well, that's amazing. So I mean, thank you so much for your time and for your, your great insights on lead generation. We've actually recently done a survey of b2b marketers, trying to understand what the priorities are coming out of COVID. And not surprisingly, lead generation was by far the most important priority. So it's very timely to be able to talk to you so thank you very much for your time.

Olivia: Thank you so much for having me.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

Growth Acumen Podcast Interview: B2B Sales and Marketing Trends in 2021

Napier's Managing Director Mike recently sat down with Steven Norman, owner and host of the Growth Acumen podcast, which aims to help B2B sales leaders upgrade their knowledge and skills.

In the podcast interview, Mike and Steven discuss marketing campaigns that deliver a sale advantage, and how Napier strives to align the sales and marketing functions in order to drive targeted, high-value results.

Listen to the full interview here, or via your favourite podcast app, and don’t hesitate to get in touch and let us know your thoughts.

New Virtual Show EDS Reconnect Announced

EDS Reconnect is a brand new virtual experience for the engineering design sector. Taking place across two days from 31st March-1st April 2021, the event will feature a series of keynotes, case-study led presentations and interactive panel sessions, which will address the key challenges and opportunities facing the UK engineering sector in 2021.

The event provides several networking opportunities, with visitors able to book meetings directly with suppliers and speakers, as well as visit virtual booths. With over 30 keynotes, panel sessions and presentations planned, key expert-led talks include 'Driving energy efficiency and lower EMI in industry 4.0' and 'Getting the Smart stuff wrong when creating innovative products.'

It's great to see EDS Reconnect provide a virtual platform for engineers and professionals to be educated on the latest within the engineering design sector. With no clear future on when physical events will return, virtual experiences are becoming more crucial to ensuring that the industry still has the opportunity to network outside of the traditional exhibitions.

Napier Celebrates Over 10 Years as PRCA CMS Agency Member

We were delighted to be recognised as a member of an elite group of agencies within PRCA, receiving the CMS Gold logo as recognition of Napier holding the PRCA Communication Management Standard (CMS) accreditation for more than ten years.

As part of the #HireaPRCAmember campaign, Mike, Managing Director at Napier has shared his view on the importance of ethical practice, and why holding a CMS accreditation is so important to Napier via a short interview on the PRCA website.

The CMS is a challenging audit of our processes and procedures and is a fantastic way for our hard work to be recognized. As a reflection of our team’s commitment to quality and continuous improvement, the CMS Gold logo highlights the great processes and systems we have in place at Napier. Congratulations – and thanks – to the whole Napier team!

Electronic Specifier Launches New 'Women in Technology' Website Category

Electronic Specifier has announced the release of its brand new website category Women in Technology, which was launched to mark the celebration of International Women's Day (IWD) 2021.

The 'Women in Tech' section aims to educate readers and highlight the fantastic achievements women have accomplished in tech. With stories including interviews with influential women from the industry, the section follows the IWD 2021 theme of 'Choose to Challenge', where we can all choose to challenge and call gender bias inequality while choosing to seek out and celebrate women's achievements.

Here at Napier, we were delighted to hear about Electronic Specifier's new website category, and see stories that raise the profile of women in engineering. We look forward to reading more articles that highlight the achievements of women in the industry.

Elettronica TECH and The IoT Radar Join Forces for New Video Channel

The Italian web community Elettronica TECH has announced a new publishing partnership with Wisse Hettinga, producer of The IoT Radar, an independent video production company with a strong focus on the Internet of Things and related technologies such as Edge Computing, Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence.

Consisting of a series of weekly video interviews, The IoT Radar is hosted on the Elettronica TECH website, with the aim of informing and engaging electronics engineers, and hardware and software developers. With videos no longer than five minutes per interview, the series provides 'first-hand' information to help professionals in the IoT ecosystem from design, production and integration through to research, and educational companies and publishers.

It's always interesting when a publication takes a unique approach when interacting with their readers, and here at Napier, we think its great to see Elettronica TECH use The IoT Radar to educate and inform their readers.

To find out more about The IoT Radar series, and to watch the interviews that are already live, please click here. 

A Napier Podcast: Interview with Sam Ovett - Mobile Pocket Office

In our latest episode on Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast, we interview Sam Ovett, co-founder of Mobile Pocket Office, which is leading the way in helping new and established businesses augment their human and technological resources to leverage growth and streamline productivity.

Find out more about Mobile Pocket Office, and Sams journey from a whitewater kayaker and guide to becoming a complete automation nerd, by listening to the episode here. 

To stay up to date when a new episode is live, click one of the below links to subscribe:

Transcript: Interview with Sam Ovett - Mobile Pocket Office

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sam Ovett

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to the latest episode of marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm talking to Sam over who is the co founder of mobile pocket office. Hi, Sam. Welcome to the podcast.

Sam: Hi, Mike. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Mike: Great. So I'm, I'm really interested to know, can you just tell us a little bit about your your background and how you've got to founding mobile pocket office?

Sam: Yeah, certainly. So you know, funnily enough, it's it's pretty non traditional. But my background is, after after getting a degree in college I did. I was a professional whitewater kayaker and guide. So I spent a lot of times in the outdoors taking a lot of risk and guiding people through that experience. And then, around a certain point, I decided that I wanted to be on the digital side of things, I didn't want to use my, my body to make my money. And I was really clear that automation was taken over the world, as we all feel and wanted to be on the right side of automation. And there's a bit of backstory there around co founding this with my dad, who had a lot of history in business analytics and process. And so we decided that we'd join forces do something together, I'd become really involved in the marketing side from the outdoor sports perspective. And I made a shift, just kind of a deadpan shift, I said, I want to do this, and I made the made the shift, and we launched mo pocket office and I can, there's the whole story of how we actually, you know, kick that business off and everything like that. But the bottom line is I went from being a professional whitewater guiding kayaker to, you know, a complete automation nerd.

Mike: Wow. So, I mean, there's so much in that I'm intrigued to know, for a start, you know, which was more stressful, you know, being a guide for people in whitewater kayaking or launching a new business?

Sam: You know, that's a good question. I was asked it quite that way. You know, what I always say is, you know, there's a lot of stress when you work with someone's business, and, and it's their livelihood, and other people's livelihoods, their their employees, but at the end of the day, nobody's gonna die immediately. That day, the risk of dying, that day is very low, whereas in the other, the risk is there and real. And you can drown, you know, as the primary thing and seeing that happen. And so, I would say that it's less stressful in that acute way. But I think on a daily basis, you know, when you get off the river, it's all good joy. And when you're improving somebody's business, there's a lot more stress, and I have a lot of real, you know, I get really involved with these projects. So I think the stress is a little higher here. But that's okay.

Mike: I mean, that's an interesting comparison, nobody's gonna die today is, I guess, a mystic view. But yeah, and you also start a business with your dad.

Sam: So that's a whole story on its own, but I think it's, you know, I was looking to make a shift. And he had, he had long worked on the business analytic side of, of business process with enterprise clients. And he was ready to make a shift and wanted to have a little more fun in the process side and focus more on the sales and marketing process, because it was always something that he enjoyed doing. But a lot of his work was in the analytics side.

And so, I had been really involved in marketing automation, when as an athlete, because I was automating some of my social media stuff and things like that. And I wanted to make a shift. And so we decided to kick this thing off together as partners, and you know, it's challenging working, or it can be, it can be challenging working with a, a parent, in my case, you know, the dynamic is one that we had to figure out what are the core things I'll share this because I think it's interesting is we had to figure out how to how to effectively debate an idea down to a better version of it. And it's easy in the relationship for as a father, right for him to say, you know, Sam, that's not a good idea. We're not gonna do it. But the reverse is more challenging for me to tell my father, hey, hey, Josh, this is bad idea, you know, and here's why. Right? It can become a very personal attack like feeling that way. So one of the one of the things that we worked out, as we did this outside of just the, I guess, also the kind of quote unquote, standard things that go along with growing a business is how to communicate about ideas and problems and solutions. So that we weren't at the end of day was we left to go, and hey, I love you, you know, you're my dad. And then for him, you know, you're my son. And that was always more important. And so at first, there was a lot of friction that was generated and, and, you know, we get a bit upset each other. And then we learned to say, Hey, you know what, it's not personal, we're going to do what we call catalyst session, we're going to catalyse this idea down to a better version of the idea. And it's not personal, but it's all just about getting ideas better. And the way that has improved our business, and also our relationship has been pretty cool. And I think something that has come out of this outside of just the business aspect of it, you know, the relationship side of it.

Mike: That's, that's really cool. And really good to hear. I mean, this approach, this capitalist session, is that then something you're able to use with your clients as well.

Sam: It really is. And it's one of those things where it's like, okay, let's take an idea. And you can, you can ask questions around this, however, is interesting, let's take an idea. And let's try and distil it down to the better version of the idea. And let's cut through the crap, right. And let's, let's try and throw out the bad stuff and keep the good stuff and iterate this too, it's a better version. And that can be really, you know, we you have an idea that your baby, or it's something that you came up with, personally to be attacked, on the principles of the idea can be can be, feel really personal, unless it's stated upfront, hey, this is a session to bring an idea to a more distilled better, workable, more simple, but more effective, you know, state that we can then execute on. And so doing that, and I think anybody can use this process with any any relationships they have, whether their personal relationships or business relationships. And for us, this has been just a, I mean, really a game changing way to communicate, to get to a better idea, because that's the hardest thing is, you know, you offend people, they get upset that timeline, slow down, blah, blah, blah, like, that's, you can't run a business like that, you know, it's too slow. It's not gonna work. So if you can have a method, say, hey, let's do a catalyst session and get this idea down, then everybody walks away and goes, Yeah, you know, you're not attacking me personally. We're just trying to distil an idea.

Mike: So awesome. So, I mean, let's take a step back first, just think about, you know, the business mobile pocket office? Absolutely. I mean, when you started it, what did you think it was gonna be? What did you really want to achieve?

Sam: So the thing that we want to achieve with it, and here's, basically, we saw a gap a hole, you know, Josh was working for years with these enterprise clients. And the gap that was always really visible. And I saw it in the outdoor industry that I was in heavily at the time, that was my, you know, kind of my realm that I was involved with, was this idea that like, in enterprise, and in most businesses, what we see is people are really good at their fulfilment, they spend a lot of time looking at the fulfilment process, right? Because if you can't fulfil whatever you promised, the people are buying, that's the fastest way to take an existing business, right? Not necessarily the fastest way to grow it. But the fast way to take an existing business, you don't deliver on whatever your promises, that that's not good. So people focus on that where the opportunities are missed, is in the sales area where you have a lead that's come in, right, you figured out how to generate interest. And then the process from lead to converting to a sale, that's the biggest opportunity that is just usually just completely wasted. It has a lot of human effort involved. And what most the majority do, that we've seen, with until they're introduced to this idea that, hey, you can add automation and process to this is they focus on, you know, who's the hottest lead now, right? What's the best account what's the best deal, and that's the focus, and everybody else who could potentially be a really good customer is forgotten about until that person eventually maybe comes back and says, Hey, I want to do you know, I need a big order, right? Because that's your focus. That's how you that's how you make your Commission's and that's how you survive. And so we see the just complete lack of focus on nurturing people and following up with people, especially at the enterprise level, because you're after the big deal, whereas you could be nurturing, you know, maybe 100, little deals, that could become bigger deals over time, with automation, and some process in place. And we see that that whole was just it's glaring. You look around and and it's tough to navigate politically to an enterprise, because you're you're trying to implement technology with automation. And that's always a challenge to get everybody on board when there's a lot of human sales people involved.

Mike: Interesting. I mean, the thing that fascinates me as you sit, you said it was about automation and processes. I mean, most of the enterprises that we see have, you know, more automation packages then then they could possibly use to help automate marketing and sales. So, so is it about the process? Or is it about, you know, getting the right automation package?

Sam: So, it really is about the process, because when what what do you mean, when you say automation package? Let's open that up for a second.

So, I mean, typically, typically, you might see, you know, a large enterprise have, you know, Marketo connected to Salesforce, I mean, they're spending huge amounts of money on on the the systems to run both marketing and sales. That's right. And so and that's what we see, too, and it's absolutely the case, is what I tend to see is that, like, they they usually have the technology, right. And the technology is usually there for them. But it is not usually leveraged in a way to enhance process and make it easier to be kind of this bionic human salesperson that's supercharged with the ability to follow up. And in the enterprise world. I see they usually have, you know, they do a decent job getting their newsletter out right to the different segments of clients.

They're pretty good about that. And usually, they're using Marketo and Salesforce, you know, like you could with, you know, you could kind of do the same thing with MailChimp almost. And, and so they're just pretty underutilised. Usually they've spent a lot of time designing the visuals of the database, right? but not necessarily thinking about? How do we follow up with people at different stages of the sales cycle, when business needs to be repeated? A lot of it's just some kind of really basic trigger or list. And they're still building reports that aren't dynamic and have paying somebody to build those things to say, oh, Who should we follow up with, you know, Who should we whose time for the recurring are? Like, let's take a manufacturer, we have to recertify certify something, right? Oh, it's time to get this person recertified, okay, let's all send them personal emails. And then that gets tracked into the CRM system. So they, they use these modern tools. But largely, this isn't, of course, there's there's always outliers, but largely, they use them as like old school CRMs, just a place for the information, versus using it to really drive process and follow up. And that's the opportunity loss that we see the most. Whereas you've got these folks who are I call them like Hidden Hand combat salespeople, right?

They're going out to trade shows, they're doing all these things that are the, they're effective, but they're also kind of an old school way of, of selling. They go out, they get a stack of business cards, and then they follow up with the hot prospects. And all that information is in the CRM system. And then you know, the person's getting the newsletter, maybe if they've got them on the right list. But outside of that, they're not really following up with the different specific product lines and things that they could be interested in. And making sure they're introduced to other parts of the business that they that that prospect could then buy after they bought the first thing, and educating people because the old school role of salesperson was largely outside of closing you was to educate you on your options. We have the internet now we had technology that can help you do that. And that's the gap. That's the big gap that we've we've really worked to fill when when we're working with a company, and then the rest flows from there, right? You have process. That's all downstream of that initial stuff. But the if you can get your conversions up, then you're basically saying, Hey, we're doing this amount of work to go out and generate leads and interest in people being excited about our products. And you're getting more effectiveness, more efficiency out of that top of the funnel work that you're doing.

Mike: Interesting. I mean, the thing I wonder about is, you know that these sales people are marketers that a large enterprises, they're smart people, why are they not seeing the problem and addressing it?

So here's a here's what we see. Usually, the marketers in a company are excited about it. They want to do it, but they get pushback from the salespeople. Because salespeople naturally want to guard. They're, you know, they're hunters, they're going out there hunting is a good one, they naturally want to guard their deals. And they don't necessarily want to tell everybody how it's done. And that's okay, but if you can equip that salesperson, and make them a more bionic salesperson where they could be following up with hundreds of prospects at a time Time that are somewhat interested in, they're going to have the opportunity then to have more closing calls versus prospecting only calls. I kind of went around the question a little bit. But I think the big reason it's an issue is because the bigger the enterprises are, typically the slower they move, and there's more politics. And so yeah, if you're a medium sized business, you can make decisions and just put them in place pretty quickly. And your, your, your biggest challenge is bandwidth. But if you make the decision, there's not a lot of pushback, politically, within an organisation. So the bigger you are, the more pushback you are, you might, you know, we see people get, the more consensus, you need to change the way things are done. And I think that's why it moves largely slower. And that's also why you see some of these really small, digital oriented businesses just crush it, because they can make businesses decisions so fast and changes so fast, that they're really effective at that. But you know, they don't have the market presence that some of these enterprise companies have. And that's where enterprise companies really have a leg up. They've got branding, market presence, all of that. But most of their marketing is usually sort of PR oriented. Marketing versus automation oriented, marketing. And you can have both. So as that kind of answered the question, we can have

Mike: A great answer. I love the idea of that ratio between closing two prospecting calls.

Sam: I thought, yeah, yeah, like that's as a salesperson, what do you what do you want to be on, you know, if I can get to closing calls all day long, versus out hunting, like, if marketing does a good job, I've got leads, right. And after that, it's up to me, usually they get passed off, but they're not followed up with any salesperson, just by the nature of time being constrained, they're gonna go after the hottest prospects, biggest deals, that's going to be top of mind. And if you don't have any kind of automation to follow up with all those other semi interested prospects, that probably would buy something as long as you maintain, you know, Top of Mind presence with them, and educated them about how the product or service benefits them. The amount of sales you could close in closing calls you could be on. I mean, you can have your calendar booked out way more than you normally would.

Mike: That sounds great.

Sam: I mean, yeah, it does, doesn't it? It's just like, you know, I can imagine every salesperson listening, just going, Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, that's what I want to do closing calls all day making my Commission's right, that's, that's the magic. And so if you can put that automation in place and buy into it and say, hey, I want to leverage these systems and not keep all the stuff in a little notebook to myself, and just put in the minimum that I'm asked for, you know, what good automation team, and it's usually driven, oftentimes driven out of the marketing side of things is going to do is, is they're going to help you close more deals. And so if you can feed that information back to them, well, they're gonna help you find better prospects, they're gonna help you create longer term follow up. And I think every, every salesperson has heard it, but like, the magic is in the follow up, right? It's not that you're closing a deal on the first call, that's like, you know, sure, that's lovely. But like, that doesn't happen. Most of the time. It's a it's a follow up game. And any good salesperson knows that right there real good. Follow up. Yeah. So take that idea. And take the busy work a follow up, which is manually sending that communication and getting it out at the right time. So that someone's actually got a customer journey and experience an automated, there's a lot of different ways to do that. A lot of ways to look at it. But the core idea is that if you can follow up better at that stage of interest to converting to sale over the course of at least an average sale cycle, make sure you maintain communication, you're going to generate more business, you're going to close more deals.

Mike: So I mean, we've had a bit of a puppet, some of the enterprise companies. Yeah. I mean, is this a an enterprise specific problem? Or are there similar problems with smaller and midsize companies?

Sam: Yeah, no, it's definitely not an enterprise specific problem. And in any way, it just happens to be pretty acute. And I think the call was called like the lead waste, right? Like the number of leads that come in, that are then just wasted in enterprise companies is more noticeable because they generally have more interest and inquiry. But it's the same with a small business and it's actually much more important in a small and medium sized business drawing. That's kind of a huge range, especially here in the US, you know, it's classified as a small business. But the bottom line is like, if you could follow up with me be one of the leads that come in. And you don't have to hire more people to make that part of your business scale. Then all the effort that you do for marketing and getting interest, which is probably the hardest thing anybody can do in business, right? It's like getting interest in their business, getting that awareness within your, you're going to increase the efficiency, or like the effectiveness, you know, the percentage rate of people who are going to become customers, by following up, I don't care what you do, it can be the most basic follow up, you can get very sophisticated, you can branch logic of if they do this, if they do that, but at the end of the day, if you follow up versus not for a longer period of time, and educate people and remind them that you're there, see, if they still have the problem that your product solves. You're going to win more business, no matter what kind of business you are. So it's not universal. It's an it's not specific to enterprise. It just happens to be enterprises. You know, it's a fun place this space to play in because they spend more money to solve the problem. But it's a it's not specific. It's actually I think, a lot of times easier to implement these solutions for a little bit smaller business, because there's less politics involved in a, they tend not to overcomplicate it, because they just want the result faster, because it's it's a little more pressing need.

Mike: Brilliant. I think this leads on to the next question is, if someone engages with mobile pocket office and starts talking to you about a solution, I mean, do you have a process? Do you have an approach? I mean, how do you go about fixing these issues?

Sam: Yeah, and we do, we do have a process and approach because without it, you're kind of like willy nilly all over the place. And what we found, and what we've done, you know, is was adapting our processes as well. But let me give you kind of the framework of how we think about this with people because it's something that people can, can, you know, you technically don't need us to go use this framework, right? We help catalyse that process, we have experience across industries. So we pull that experience into the experience to, you know, cuz you don't know what you don't know, in terms of what's going on. But there what, which you can find out is, where do you have opportunities for automation, right, we talked about that specific conversion phase of sales, leads to sales, but I'm going to give you the full picture because it's what we do with people as we, we say, Okay, if you want to automate things, and you feel like you can benefit from that you've somehow gotten this idea, you know, you want to follow up more whatever it may be. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to look at your your business, right, okay, there's, there's five pillars, any business doesn't matter size industry scale, everybody's got them, some are done better, some are done worse. You got to attract new business, right? That's that marketing work of generating interest, you got to convert that interest. So that's the Convert states attract, convert into leads in sales. And then you've got to fulfil whatever you promised. Then the good businesses delight their customers by offering ways to use the product better, keeping up with it, giving them new opportunities to buy more from them that benefit what they've, you know, complement what they've already bought, and help them as a customer. And then we're referrals. So those are the five pillars attract, convert, fulfil delight, refer you with me.

Mike: That's that sounds great. It sounds I mean, somewhat reminiscent of the HubSpot model. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Sam: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so you'll see it across a lot of these different tools, right? They talk about it in these kind of pillar ideas. It's like buckets. And it's a great way to think about it. And so we really, really, yeah, it's common to see it, and it's for a good reason. Because then in those buckets, you look at those and you go, what are my processes within these sections of the system of our business, right? What do we actually do within these? And that's where it starts to break down. People get that picture, they go, yeah, we know, we attract, convert, fulfil, maybe we delight, we get some referrals, or like, maybe we have a process for referrals, where we consistently ask systematically, but where people get stuck at that point is, where do they How do they find out what their processes are today? And how do they figure out of those processes, which should be automated. And let me lead you down that path. Because this is what we do with folks.

The first thing is, we funny thing is like we do this digital automation, and we implement it, but we take this very analogue approach. We have everybody print off a spreadsheet for three days worth of 15 minute intervals. And so just for three days, you give everybody on the team and you can do this in smaller chunks to like, if you're just working with the marketing and sales team, then you You know you're working with you're attracting convert, not your fulfilment as much. And so you give them this spreadsheet, you say, okay, whatever to do just fill out what do you do every, every 15 minutes, make a note of what you've done throughout the day for three days. And you have to position it that like, we're not going to use this to say you're not productive. It's just to understand what processes you do throughout the day, what constitutes the work of your business, right? what actually makes up your time, and now you have a pattern. And some people need to do it a little bit longer. Maybe you need to do four or five days or like you have cycles, you know, you came back from a trade show, what do you do after that type of deal with Coronavirus? Those are largely like not a thing as much, but you just look at what do you do. And now that you've documented that, and we call it a personal activity log pals sheet, just a name we've assigned to it. And now that you've documented that, now you understand your process within the system, right? And you may need to do that, like I said, in different phases of the business year, stuff like that. But you'll understand, okay, here's the busy work, like I'm moving this information from here to here, I'm sending an email to this interested prospect, blah, blah, blah. Now you have your process. And two things come out of that. One is of that what is effective today? what works, what gets you new business? Right? If we're looking at those top two stages, once you start to understand what works, those are things that you should start to look at and go, okay, that works. How much time does it take me? to do that? And of it, what can I automate. And then that's that. And only at that point is when we start looking at the technology tools involved to make the automation happen.

Right, we're trying to design the house first, so to speak, and then get the appropriate tools to build it versus finding tools and then building a house. So once you understand your process, now you know what you can automate. And then you also see, this is where it's hard to do, or it can be hard to do without someone else who's seen it across different industries is is where the gaps, holes and opportunities to improve the process make it more robust. You know, in this case, we talk a lot about the follow up longer make it branch so that the logic makes more sense for different customer segments and driving that using data. And also turning it off at the appropriate time so that people are getting communication when they shouldn't be. And then you can do that for each segments of your business. That attract, convert, fulfil, delight, and refer. And so if we start there, if we get that going, Well, we increase your conversions. Well, of course, then, you know, you've got a fulfilment issue that you have to deal with, because you've got increased fulfilment that you have to do. And then the light and refer those all kind of go together. But that is literally the step. So you look at that. And then we use a digital tool called diagrams, that net, I think, the name changed recently, I have to find it, but to actually map out what you do after you've documented that process, and that's actually like a call that we have. And now there's a really clear picture of what goes on to run the business. And at that point, also, you get this benefit, that it's easier to train somebody new, because you just documented how the business runs. And then you start to put numbers to the value of automation. There's two opportunities for automation.

One is, and they both help you scale, but one is one that saves money, right? Where are there holes in your process where you're leaking money, because you're, you're paying more people to move information around from one system to another, right? That's a leak, that's money you can save. So automation can save you money in that way. And allow you to scale and free up humans to do more creative work more interesting work. And you know, occasionally people lose a job. That's the unfortunate nature of it. But like most humans want to do interesting work. They don't want to do repetitive stuff. And so, given give somebody that opportunity, they're probably going to flourish, be more excited about their work all that. So that's just a side benefit. But the other is where can you make more money, right? How can you be more profitable, because you're not communicating, you're not capturing people's attention, and converting that to a sale. And so those are the two big things. So they all relate to scaling, but one is saving money. One is making more money. And then on the you can ask some questions after this, but like on the saving money side, that was pretty easy. You know, how much time are we spending doing this on a weekly or monthly basis? Whatever the timeline is that makes sense for the process. And, you know, what do we pay for for this to get done? What is the person who's doing this? What's their time? build that? What do we what do we pay them at and if we automate And we pay for it once with an automation tool to get it built out, or we built it out, you know, then you can do some basic math and understand the savings.

Mike: So it's interesting, you seem to be looking at it from both sides of that return on investment equation, you know, both reducing the amount of money you have to invest to implement a process, and also increasing the return by making it more efficient.

Sam: Yep, exactly. And so, you know, the basic idea we can think about this is like, on the saving money side, someone who's doing administrative tasks that are required to make a business run, if the majority of their tasks can be automated, and you pay them anywhere between, you know, let's say, $50,000, a year, or something like that, right. And all the health care that's involved in all that, and like, generally, that person is also doing other stuff. Most of the time, they don't just do rote admin work. In fact, the majority of the time, what we see is like, that person is overwhelmed with stuff to do. And so if you can free that up, then they're gonna be more focused on the more on the higher value items. But at the same time, you can think about it like, well, if we invested that same amount once to build out the automation that we don't have, and the automation never takes a holiday, and never gets sick, and all those things about automation that you know, where computers are different than humans, then you've invested at once versus having to hire maybe another person or that person to do those things year after year, inconsistently, most of the time.

Mike: So that's, that's fascinating. I mean, I guess one of the push backs, you hear against automation, is that it creates inflexibility, once you've coded that automation, you can't change the process. Is that something you hear from clients? And what's your response?

Sam: I'm glad you brought that up. Because I actually, we, you know, we don't hear that because we take people down a different path, but it is, it is a problem. And here's how you address it. And we live in a day and age where the tools are not what's so fat, fantastic, right? They are fantastic in what they do. But they it's it's the strategy around it, that's more important. So if ever we see somebody going down the path of trying to custom code, something where it's fairly inflexible, and it's not relatively easy to modify, we, we try and hit breaks, and stop them because we live in an age where the tools are so the interfaces are so easy, you know, we do some custom coding with folks. But largely, it's the strategy around automation, the value that it provides to the business, that's that's the real magic, and like, tweaking it till it's better and better. And I can talk a bit about that. But the main thing is that, you know, kind of like my, my public service announcement is don't code anything that you don't have to use drag and drop builders use these easy to use tools, they're out there, you know, when you have to code stuff you do, but the ecosystem of tools is so strong nowadays, that you should be able to use a tool that's with a few clicks, allows you to modify the process versus lines of code. And so the the end of the day, like done well, we turn the systems over to our clients, and give them methodologies to improve the systems so that they can track the effectiveness of it. And then what I love to see is like you have at least one or two smart people on the team who are smart in the realm of these tools. And they're going to they're going to be able to make those tweaks internally. And you know, typically what happens, we sometimes will do it for folks, but we just guide them on the strategy and help them make decisions. Once the big implementation has been put in place, the infrastructure is there.

First, that's great. I think that you know, I mean, like, you shouldn't be coding. Now. Anybody who's like who's writing code is like, you should be writing code. If you're building a new system for somebody that is like, then you're going to sell them a bunch of people. But if you're just using a system, trying to automate some things, unless you've got a super complex situation that just can't handle it. And maybe you need something custom, but the reality is like on the sales conversion side, you're probably not going to run into you're going to run into unique things and you might have to adapt a little bit but like, you should be able to adapt around and use the tools that exist today. fulfillments a different story. You know, fulfilment gets kind of a more custom experience a lot of the times but fulfilment stays less flu is less changing. You know, if you have a product or service you can usually you're you're pretty happy to invest in the fulfilment automation, because you know how that works is consistent, but what you want to tweak is you want to tweak that, that experience in the, in the, in the attract and convert stages for sure. So yeah, don't be coding, use your use use the, like, easy to use tools. And how you got to set up you got to think about how you set them up right there. That's the deal, right? Because like, you can buy a Salesforce, you can buy a marketer, you can buy an ontraport, you can buy whatever these tools are by HubSpot. But if you set it up, like pilot junk, you know, and don't utilise it, well, that's where you're going to go, Oh, this thing doesn't really do what it's promised. Right? It does do what it's promised. You just got to design it for your situation.

Mike: Absolutely makes sense. And I am interested, do you have some examples of you know, perhaps some customers you've helped and how you've helped them out? So you can perhaps explain a little bit as to what it feels like to work with you guys?

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the one of the customers are mentioned in the enterprise realm is gx Nippon. So they're your company people know. And they've got a bunch of different business lines. One of the one of their headquarter office here is in the, for one of their lines in the United States, in Georgia, actually. And they have a in this, we'll talk about one of the products, which is the people probably, do you guys know, Tyvek? Over there? Is that the siding of houses stuff? Like the waterproof membrane on the side of houses?

Mike: No, no, we don't.

Sam: But if you think about a building, right, you see a house being built, see that, like, when it goes up, there's like that plasticky looking stuff outside,

Mike: We'd call it a damp course over here in England, okay.

Sam: So you take that stuff, and that's one of the things they make, right, they make a version of that. You know, of course, they think it's superior and things like that. But that's besides the point. They have a team of salespeople that are going out to trade shows, they're reaching out to prospects, they're trying to find dealers, you know, we're working with larger accounts, and they had Sugar CRM, enterprise, people probably know that. So older CRM system, you know, pretty flexible, you can do what you want not not crazy, easy to use, like some of these newer ones, but it's a CRM system, right. And unfortunately, most of these tools just get used like CRM systems anyways, versus actual marketing automation and sales automation tools. But they would go out, they would meet people, this was in the time of trade shows, when we did this one, and the same can be said for anything virtual is just following up, they would go out, and they would get a list of prospects and people would become interested. And then they would only follow up with the hot prospects, and it was all scheduling via email, you know, very cumbersome, and they would take these business cards and import them in manually to some Excel spreadsheet, if they even did that. And then the rest of the business cards would live in a drawer on their desk when they got back from the event. So there's a lot of opportunity waste, right?

All these cards could be potential customers, but they're only following up with one or two hot prospects, because that was you know, how they meet your quota and help them reach their goals, and no automation around follow up. And so really basic, but but very effective example, in their case, was to start there at that aspect of it, which was understanding that helping them understand that they could, you know, automate pieces of that, where, hey, now you can just use your phone take picture of the business card, and this app, it pops it in to, you know, in their case, a tool like Sugar CRM. And that talked to another tool that could send some automated emails that could educate somebody with some videos and information on a, like 60 day sales cycle. So it span that whole gap of time with information about the product, right, so you never were forgetting about that person. And then each of the emails had an opportunity to schedule a call because they're still, you know, we didn't didn't take it to the extreme where they're buying online in their situation, they were still closing that deal and doing doing the custom deal on the phone.

But what they were doing is everything leading up to that closing call was able to be automated, where all the follow up was education based. It was bringing the customer into their world, and also the primary thing in their case, which is not forgetting about people, right. You met them at a trade show where he goes back and then a few days later everybody forgets about everybody they said their follow up with except for the you know, hot lead. And so now they had gone from one or two, you know, really interesting prospects per tradeshow. To following up with all the business cards, they got in They will increase the conversion ratio of people simply by maintaining in touch because that you know that their competitors were doing the same thing, trying to follow up a lot of cases manually. And then. So that's one step of the process and also took the burden we introduced calendar scheduling tool that allowed them to schedule those calls with people more effectively, more efficiently, less back and forth busy work of sales time. And so their effort could be focused on closing costs. The other side of that was understanding and their case, their relationship to customers and referrals, right? Where did referrals come from? How did they get referrals? When people refer them something? What What was the, what happened? Like, what was the process that was experienced? And based on that building process to remind them, when it was time to send an email, in their case, we kept it still kind of manual, about asking for a referral, right, which is at a certain stage in the journey. So you just delivered something the customer is happy, they've got what they want, you just find that that point where the biggest joy is in the customer's experience, right? Are they Something has just been fulfilled on a timeline.

That's when you need to ask for that referral. And so just by reminding and putting process in place to ask for referrals,they were able to increase their referrals quite a bit, because of process now being in place to remind them through some pieces of automation, hey, it's time to ask for a referral and bugging the salesperson to remind them, while they're in the middle of whatever hot lead, they're talking to, you know, closing deal making whatever that is at the enterprise level, which can, you know, it's it, that is something that can be part of the, you know, part of the process is making that deal and that can consume time. And so if we can automate everything else around that and remind the sales team, hey, you have an opportunity for a good referral, right? You've just, you've just, you're the fulfilment team has delivered the product, right, it arrived, everything's there happy, then now's the time to ask for that referral. And that's a natural way to increase business in an amazing way. And it's, you know, the marketing's effectively free for that next lead. So those are two examples out of that. Any, any questions that come out of that?

Mike: No, I mean, that's, that's absolutely fascinating. And I'm sure people listening would be, you know, really interested in talking to you and working out how it could be applied to their business. So I guess the question is, how would how would people get in contact with you if they'd like to follow up after listening genre podcast?

Sam: Yeah, well, that's the easiest way you go to mobile pocket office.com. And on the front page, we've got a big book now button, you can book a call. And that's a call with Josh, and myself. And then our team is, you know, we, we manage the implementations I, I primarily manage all the implementations once we've done the strategy work. And then we QA that, but we have a team that actually does the building of it. And so that way, we're freed up to do the things we like we talked about, which is to be on those on this calls, you know, prospecting and closing costs, to kind of eat our own dog food and that way. So it's real obvious on the site book. Now, you can book a call, it's got an automatic scheduler, and it books it all in our calendars, it puts it on your calendar. And it's it's really easy, you know, use automation to our benefit there.

Mike: So actually doing what you preach, which is great here. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Sam, it's been really interesting. It's certainly great to hear someone talk about how to use tools effectively, rather than just the features of tools. So I really appreciate your time on the, for the interview.

Sam: Thank you, I will leave people with one other thought just one thought and kind of wrap it up is don't try to make a lot of big changes all at once. It's hard, make a lot of small changes. And also that'll get especially in the enterprise world, that as people see those Quick Hits results. And it's easier, things are faster, they take less time. They're, they're more consistent. There'll be happier to do then the next thing and before you know it, you've covered a lot of ground.

Mike: Perfect. That's great advice. Thank you very much, Sam.

Sam: Thank you.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

Shock Your Potential Podcast Interview: Beware of Numbers

Mike, Managing Director at Napier, recently sat down with Michael Sherlock, CEO of Shock Your Potential to discuss how to truly analyze performance by looking past the initial 'numbers'. Mike shares 'Test, Refine, Test approach, and explains how this helps Napier clients truly gain traction that leads to profitability.

Listen to the full interview here, or via your favourite podcast app, and don’t hesitate to get in touch and let us know your thoughts.

Electronics Weekly Releases Advertising in a Crisis Whitepaper

Electronics Weekly has released an 'Advertising in Crisis' whitepaper which focusses on understanding whether advertising in a crisis is truly worthwhile. The whitepaper explores the impact on both immediate and longer-term companies' decisions to either cut, freeze or increase their marketing spend due to the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020, by analysing the performance of campaigns across numerous sectors.

The analysis provides some interesting results, finding that there was a significant impact on website performance when reducing marketing spend, as 'company A' chose to cut their advertising spend by 90% for the rest of the year. This resulted in seeing the number of total users being 84% less than in 2020 compared to 2019.

When comparing company A to company B, which chose not to reduce their advertising spend, Electronics Weekly has found that company B increased its market share in 2020; and whilst company A retained just over 16% market share, Company B soared over 80%.

The whitepaper reveals some intriguing results, presenting a clear correlation between reducing marketing spend and seeing an immediate impact on results. It's also interesting to see that the decision to reduce marketing spend can actually provide competitors with an advantage, which is why its vital to maintain momentum and visibility even during a crisis.

To read the full report for yourself, please click here. 


WEKA FACHMEDIEN Announces New Cluster Strategy and Structure

WEKA FACHMEDIEN has shared details of its new cluster strategy, which focuses on targeting specific market segments, with electronics, ICT and Automation clusters. This focus has introduced a leaner organizational structure, with the aim to offer B2B market partners in the electronics, ICT, and automaton industries with 'One face to the customer'.

The ICT cluster strategy was successfully implemented in 2019 with the sales team headed by Eric Weis, offering the relevant channels in the ICT business network with ICT CHANNEL, funkschau, LANline and Smarthouse Pro.  Stefan Adelmann has taken over the position of Director Content ICT, whilst Dr Jörg Schröper continues as Editor-in-Chief of LANline, driving digital formats and events such as Tech Forums and Datacenter Symposia.

The newly created Electronics cluster has Christian Stadler leading the sales team as Sales Director, reporting directly to Marc Adelberg, Director of New Business. This move now means advertisers and industry partners can reach the readers and users of Markt&Technik, Elektronik, DESIGN&ELEKTRONIK, Elektronik automotive, medical design, SmarterWorld and the business network elektroniknet.de with their market communications via just one contact. In this new organizational structure, the core teams consist of Editor-In-Chief and Managing Editor, with Joachim Kroll taking on the role of Editor-in-Chief of Elektronik and Elektronik automotive, in addition to heading DESIGN&ELEKTRONIK; whilst the new position of Director of Content Electronics will be held by Dr. Ingo Kuss, who will also continue as Editor-in-Chief of Markt&Technik.

In the Automation clutter, Tiffany Dinges takes the position of Sales Director, while Andrea Gillhuber will continue as Editor-in-Chief of Computer&AUTOMATION. The "One Face to the Customer" strategy provides advertisers and industry partners with quick access to contacts for print/e-paper, digital platforms, events and virtual exhibitions of the media brands.

We heard rumblings of several editorial layoffs at WEKA last month, and this move to a new structure means we have had to say goodbye to editors such as Frank Riemenschneider, Gerhard Stelzer, Manne Kreuzer and Hagen Lang. It will be interesting to see what further structure changes will be implemented across the WEKA GROUP moving forward and how this will affect the streamlining of any other editorial teams.

A Napier Podcast: Interview with Steve Zakur - Solosegment

We are delighted to share the latest interview from Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast.

In our latest episode, we interview Steve Zakur, CEO & Co-Founder of Solosegment, which provides software that drives engagement and leads with anonymous data and AI.

Find out more about Solosegment and the meaning behind anonymous personalization, by listening to the episode here. 

To stay up to date when a new episode is live, click one of the below links to subscribe:

Transcript: Interview with Steve Zakur - Solosegment

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Steve Zakur

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to the latest edition of marketing b2b technology from Napier. Today, I've got Steve zaika from solo segment. Welcome to the podcast, Steve.

Steve: Thanks very much, Mike.

Mike: Thanks, Steve. So, you co-founded Solosegment, can you tell me about your career journey? And how you got to the point where you decided to found the company?

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been kind of a technology person by trade for a long time, although I've never written a line of code. You know, I've often been that person who is at the interface of Business and Technology, whether it was back in the days when I worked in finance, I moved into operations. And then in the late 90s, kind of caught the startup bug, I really was excited about the opportunity, especially the way the internet right at that time, was really changing and transforming how business was done and worked for a startup for about two years. And like many startups, that went when essentially nowhere, but I had the good fortune of getting hired by IBM at that point, because this was now late 2000, early 2001. And they were, you know, hoovering up all of these, anybody who could spell.com they wanted to hire and so had the good fortune to get hired at IBM, and then spent 15 years there, in a variety of executive roles, primarily focused on what I like to refer to as fixing broken toys, a lot of work, you know, looking at products, projects, customer relationships that have kind of gone awry, and helping us to write those.

And last couple of years that I was with IBM, I was working in there, I was responsible for their sales and marketing technology. And it was a pretty hefty responsibility. And of course, being an executive, your job is to take the pain that other executives throw at you. So it really gave me a keen sense for, you know, what were the gaps and opportunities, especially with regards to marketing technology. And early in 2016, I was at our Astor Place location, and I was walking through the halls, and I ran into Mike Moran, and Mike, who was one of the cofounders solo segment. He was the guy who hired me went back in November of 2000. And into IBM, we had lost track for about 15 years. And, you know, literally, he was back doing some consulting, we had a chat by the elevator and said, let's have a beer because I've got this idea. And that idea was soul segment, you know, did he had just gotten started with some development of software that that helped improve website search. But it really was that was the starting point. And, you know, a lot of our early conversations before I joined him, were very much focused on this gap, right? This this where the, you know, marketing executives, you know, weren't getting often the value they could out of the existing technology, and how could we bridge that. And so, you know, my journey to solo segment now spending four years building solo segment and from, you know, I guess what you classically think of as a startup into an actual business that operates is, was really focusing on that those gaps that we saw. And honestly, you know, of course, like any good company listening to, you know, your customers and finding, you know, the nuances and the pain so that you can make sure you're addressing what's important to them.

Mike: Amazing. And is the founding team. Are they still with the company?

Steve: Yep, they sure are. Yeah, Tim Peters, the third member of the founding team, Tim is our marketing leader. He's, he's a marketing technology person, as well, has a lot of experience in financial services, hospitality and into the tech industry as well.

Mike: Wow. So you've got the classic sort of CO marketing and technical trio family company. That's cool.

Steve: Yeah, it was. And honestly, that's one of the things that drew me there. I mean, you know, I know that, you know, from my prior experience, you know, that early team is really important in not only the vision, but you know, it's very easy for individuals to make to go astray. But when you have a solid team that you really, that keeps you honest and keeps you focused on the customer value, it's very helpful, but more than anything, you know, we fill each other's blind spots, right. And that really was the benefit. The early benefit was, you know, we all had very unique but distinct points of view on the business opportunity.

Mike: Amazing. I think I've got a blind spot that I need filling so. So the segment describes itself as anonymous personalization. Can you can you just unpack that and explain what you mean by it?

Steve: Yeah, you bet. So I mean, traditional personalization. I mean, it's in the name, right. You know, it's all about understanding something about the person. And so when you look at how personalization technology emerged, and again, this rewinds all the way back to the late 90s. And especially when you think about what Amazon was doing early on, you know, really under Standing patterns and behaviour. And there were lots of other companies that did as well. But Amazon, of course, is an exemplar in many ways. In the consumer space. You know, a lot of effort was put into understanding data about the people. And as marketing technology and marketing processes, embraced digital, almost everything we do focused on the person, everything from how the technology identifies people to cookies related to computers, which are related to people, logins. Now that data gets that first party data get sold as third party data.

So basically, you can buy information about anybody on the planet, that that root of the personal data in personalization is deeply, deeply embedded in how we think about web engagement, right, it's knowing something about you. And then using that information, to help you engage with social conversations that might interest to you to help you find products that might be interesting to you. In the b2b space, it's a little bit different, the challenges were a little bit different. When you look at the profile of a visitor to a b2b website, a very small portion of them are actually identifiable three to 5%. So why is 90 95% of the traffic on identifiable for a variety of reasons. First, often what you're doing at work doesn't relate to what you do in your personal computer, although in COVID, land, right, you know, everything is the same. But but in kind of a traditional view of things, you know, what you're doing in your personal life, or what you're doing your business life are very distinct. So there's not that data trail, that kind of translates really well. So if I'm on Amazon in the morning, buying something, and then I go to work, and now I'm looking at, you know, software vendors website, there's not a lot of interesting data that translates to that. And that that's part of what the leads to that lack of interesting data that's available to b2b marketers. But the other thing, other reason that that that data is not often available is because of the incentives.

In my personal life and my consumer life, there are lots of incentives for me to share information. Part of it is that you know, some object appears on my doorstep when I order it. But the other incentives are, you know, this data is actually I mean, while there are bad actors and whatnot in the marketplace, it's largely being used for good, right, I'm finding the things I want, and being exposed to things that I didn't know I want, but actually suit me very, very well. Anybody who spent any time on YouTube, going down deep into holes on topics of interest knows this. But in the in the business world, the incentives are almost there, almost disincentives, quite frankly, to sharing your information. You're part of it is that, you know, if you do share your information to learn the process, you're going to get harassed by sales reps in an endless nurture campaign in your email inbox. But there's not a lot of trade for value, right? You know, getting a white paper, and then taking on the burden of these endless emails doesn't often seem like a fair trade for value. So prospects, visitors resist that. And that, really, at the core is the challenges. Why anonymous personalization because what anonymous personalization is all about is creating engaging moments without having to know oh, this is Mike. And he's been to this website five times in the past, and he's done these certain activities. It's really in the moment, can you create an engaging experience, based upon not specific data about the person, but general data about the behaviour. And that's what we like to think about as anonymous personalization, engaging experiences that don't require personal knowledge of the person, primarily, because in b2b, it's very hard to get that data. And so why struggle to try and get the data, why not just accept and embrace what you already have, which is nothing and use that anonymous data to create those engaging experiences.

Mike: Interesting. So I mean, just explained to me a little more about what that means. So you're looking at the behaviour, just on one website, and then personalising based on that. So how does it work?

Steve: Yeah, so we have technologies and some of its kind of traditional predictive analytics, there are some machine learning as well as some natural language processing components to it as well. And we're looking at primarily behavioural data. So the two places the behavioural data that we find most interesting are first intent data that you can get out of out of a website's search engine. So while not a lot of people search on b2b websites, those who do give you some interesting information about content and the relationship with content to intent, like what they're interested in, and why they're interested in it. And once you understand that, you can then almost reverse it, right? And so for any piece of content, you know, what its intent is. And so that's the first piece of data that we look at is intent data on the website so that we know when somebody is on a page, you know, we can make a prediction That's if that's the fancy word for in machine learning for a guess, you know, we can make a prediction about what the odds are that somebody has a certain intent for a certain piece of content. And as you might imagine, that, you know, varies by content from content to content. But the other behavioural data we look at is just all of the visitor journeys that have gone on on the website, right, people start in one place, they end in another. And what we're looking for, especially in the longer journeys, the 2345 page journeys, is we're looking for journeys that, you know, lead to some sort of goal achievement. And by understanding those patterns, we can begin to gather with that intent data to, to make some guesses about when you're on a page, what, why you might be there, and what piece of content you might want to see next, right based upon the pattern analysis that the machine is doing. And of course, every time you give the machine some information, the machine makes better predictions going forward. And there's a third piece of data, of course, which is the content itself, we have a natural language processing technology that looks at content, and tries to understand what it's about what his topic is, what industry it might be about, you can imagine a lot of other things that we can discern.

And so when somebody comes to a website, you know, we're immediately the models are immediately running, they're looking at what the person is looking at, looking at how they're looking at it, right, their scroll depth, how they're interacting with the page, but and they're making these predictions of two things, right, based upon the intent based upon the content based upon all the journeys that are similar to this one. What might you be trying to achieve? And what piece of content might you need to see next in order to progress towards that goal?

Mike: And that helps. So I mean, it sounds like there's lots of elements of it, if I look on your website, you've got, you know, effectively four key products identified, can you explain how they work together to produce a solution?

Steve: The are independent, or they can be used independently, they all share a common platform. You know, we're, we sell two products, search box and guide box, they're kind of our two primary products, mostly, because that's how our customers think about web interaction, it's kind of interesting, you know, we we separate searching and behaviour from navigating behaviour. And there's even variations of navigating behaviour, right, we have navigation behaviour, where people are responding to, to campaigns versus navigation behaviour, maybe they're coming in through organic search, or they're just typing a URL coming direct. So there's lots of different types of behaviours. But when you think about how our customers think about the world, often they think about the website in those two areas, right? We have searchers, and we have navigators. And so that's why search box and guide box were delivered, but they all share this common platform. And that is, you know, looking at the behaviours of people on the website, and using data to automatically drive improvement. So let's talk for a moment about searching behaviour. In searching behaviour, you know, one of the key challenges is a and you would think one of the key inputs in the search engines, even though it's not, would be, hey, when somebody has a successful behaviour on a search, we should, you know, take that data and do something with it. And that doesn't often happen, right? A lot of how search engines work are based upon how good the content is. But it very rarely looks at the behaviours after the content. So that's what's unique about search box. And honestly, that's where a lot of our intent data comes from, is we're looking deeply at not only what did somebody search for, and what did somebody click on, but we're looking at the behaviours after the click to really discern, was this a successful interaction or an unsuccessful interaction? And that not only gives us data about searcher success, which you can then feed back to the search engine to give it some, you know, information about which links are the better answers versus which links are the worst answers. But more importantly, that then becomes a data set, were we really understand on a specific company's website? You know, how good is search? And, and are those searchers based upon again, coming back to intent what they intended to achieve achieving that thing?

Mike: Interesting. So you're, you're looking at what people search for, and then you're trying to use that to almost assess the value of different content in different situations? Is that how it's working?

Steve: Yeah, I mean, that's a good way of thinking about it. You know, the search engines are always trying to programmatically evaluate content and discern, you know, what it's about. And that, of course, once this once the search engine knows what it's about, you know, through a variety of techniques that are, you know, very mathematically driven, so I won't go into them too much. But most search engines work that right, right? They look at content, that's called indexing, right? They gather all the content, and then they evaluate that content to try to figure out what it's about. And we take that whole thing the next step further, which is to say, Okay, great, the search engines done that evaluation. It's figured out what this content is about. But now let's add the user feedback into it. Right, let's add customer experience back into it. And it's not just the customer experience while they're on the search engine results page, but it's really the experience after they leave the search engine results page after they make that click and start their journey. You know, was that journey actually successful or not?

Mike: Interesting. And in terms of working this out? I mean, I think you said the AI guesses. I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that. I mean, can you explain what AI gives you that you couldn't get from something that's more of a programmatic formula type approach?

Steve: Yeah. So, you know, thinking about AI, is one of the ways I like to think about it. And I think it helps marketers think about it is kind of the traditional ways of doing, as you said, programmatic sort of solutions to this problem is very similar to a b testing, right? So you come up with an A and a B ad, and you run them and you see which one performs better. And then you start, you know, the machine would automatically say, you know, what B's doing a lot better, let's promote B. And so that's kind of a traditional way of thinking about those, you have you posit two hypotheses, and you test them, what machine learning allows you to do is to not have to come up with the hypothesis, right? You don't have to come up with the A and the B, you actually come up with a goal, right? So you define, I want more leads. And what the machine is going to do is it's going to come up with the A and the B and the C and the D. And it's just going to constantly try to optimise on that goal versus optimising the two choices you have given it. And so it the same way, when you think about all this journey analytics that goes on, we're compiling all of this information about people and their interactions with a website on a continuous basis.

Now, some of those interactions are very small, right, somebody responds to a campaign and leaves the site a one page visit a bounce. Sometimes they're very short, you know, you look at a lot of these companies. And they are their goal is to get two pages per visit on average, right? So they're very short interactions. But when you can look at the longer interactions, you just have so many of them, that it's hard to, for a human to kind of discern the pattern and choose, you know, which of these two, two pathways are better, right, and the human defines the pathways. So instead, we just tell the machine, you know, we want more downloads, we want more contact forms, we want more whatever. And now the machine knows that those sorts of events are the goals. And it's going to look for the patterns that that lead to the goals. And over time, as somebody comes to the website, it will recognise when somebody is on one of those patterns. And it could be as simple as G everybody who starts on this page, who happens to land on this page has an 80% likelihood that they're going that they're shooting for the contact form, let me nudge this person forward, to try to get him to the contact form, right. So it's that's the kind of predictions that the machines working on. But the the real difference between programmatic ways and machine learning ways is in machine learning, you define the goal. And once you've defined the goal, the machine can figure out the optimal ways towards achieving the goal versus having to draw, you know, for a human to actually have to figure out, well, here's the five ways to the goal, we're going to test let's just figure out which of my five ideas is best.

Mike: Interesting. So, I mean, how does a user use seller segment? It sounds like, you know, there might be this incredibly complicated set up before suddenly the magic happens it? Is it tough, or is it straightforward?

Steve: It's relatively straightforward. I'll say that. And, you know, we're working every day to kind of make it more straightforward. You know, certainly, when, when I was in my role at IBM, you know, one of the deep pain points that we had was time to value. You know, we were a large enterprise, when we bought large enterprise software was often complex to implement. It was often and part of that was by design, by the way, right? Because it's, it's far easier to retain a software, you know, retain an account if you're a software vendor, if it's hard to unplug you. So I think some of that complexity was by design, but but you know, required integrations with systems that, you know, we had, whether it was integrating to the CRM system or fulfilment systems. And so is the time to value was was, you know, one of the biggest struggles that you'd be a year into a contract and you're just getting the most basic function sort of deployed.

And I think that's where, you know, where I started in my role there, you know, getting involved in a lot of what I would refer to as best in class vendors, right, these smaller vendors who were far more agile, their price points were a lot more appealing. Yeah. And, you know, often they didn't require the complexity that that these larger kind of more traditional vendors required. And so that was really our goal, when we were thinking about what type of company do we want to be, you know, we started off with this idea that we don't want to be a company that makes it really hard to manage the data. And that was part of our, you know, focus on anonymous data versus personal data. But the other thing was, you know, we want to make it easy to get started. And so I mean, search box is the easiest product to get started with, because, you know, it gathers all the data via JavaScript, you put a couple of lines of code on the page. And it just begins to, to gather data about what's going on in search and what's going on after search. And that was our first product, by the way. And so that design decision where we said, we're not going to integrate with the technology that our customer uses, whether it's their web analytics, or their search engine, we're going to use JavaScript to capture the data ourselves, that now kind of pervades everything we do, right? What can we do with the JavaScript to make it easier for our customers to adopt, and honestly make it easier for us to get them to value, right that you know, to speed the time to value. So JavaScript is a way that we gather a lot of data, much like any analytics programme does. And we also the second way we gather data is we searched the website like a search engine would so we can index all the content and apply our NLP against those indexes that we created all the content, but we try to make it as easy as possible. And again, having been in large enterprise marketing tech, I get the pain point and the time to value problem. And so that's part of our goal.

Mike: But it sounds like you can load that JavaScript things start happening immediately. And then you obviously need to presumably give some idea of what a conversion is, whether it's a form fill or something, is it is that right?

Steve: Yes and no. So the general processes that JavaScript gets installed, and for some companies, and by the way, some people think when I give these examples, oh, he's talking about the small company had an easy time and a big company had a hard time, it actually doesn't matter on company size, it's often just, you know, the where the Paranoid dial is set out, some some companies said at 11, break it and some companies set it up for but you know, getting that JavaScript deployed, you know, is usually a couple of weeks just because these large companies have processes that they want to go through to, you know, test them and put it on board. And then we usually need some baseline set of data to get both search box and guide box to work. Because all of these learning technologies, you know, just they work they need to learn, right, they need some data set to learn. And while the holy grail is some general model that will work across all businesses in all industries, the reality is it has to learn on the behaviours of each of our clients. So that usually takes about 30 days. And again, it depends on the size of the client and the volume of data. But most of our, our clients are dealing with 10s of 1000s of pages of content and hundreds of 1000s of visits a month. And so we pretty pretty quickly gather enough data, enough head of steam, if you will, enough learning that the models are working within 30 days or so and and that's when the comp plan can begin to really get value from them. Where where the client has some work to do, of course, is getting through all of their processes to deploy, deploy the code, and that they have to make some choices, some of our technology appears on the glass, right that we deliver some sort of user experience. And so they have to decide, you know, share with us their design, standards and whatnot. So we make sure that it looks like something that comes from that company. But you know, again, our goal is always to kind of lower the barrier to getting started, lower the barriers, time to value.

Mike: And it sounds like you're also giving a little bit of consultancy in terms of helping the customer is that right? I mean, it sounds like you're not a classic SAS vendor that you sign up online, and you're on your own.

Steve: Yeah, I mean, you know, we had intended to be that SAS vendor, you know, that was already dead. And by the way, experiences, again, in my career, you know, these large enterprises, they are, they can be high touch. So, you know, they, you know, when I think about all of our client relationships, you know, I know most of my clients, but, you know, we're, you know, I try to make sure that I'm speaking to them fairly frequently. But they're, I mean, the nature of their businesses is they're large and complex. And so, because we have a point of view on, on not only our area of expertise, which is in digital engagement, personalization, sort of technologies, but on how those technologies integrate with the entire marketing processes, you know, you bet our customer success, people definitely, you know, chat with our clients about broader issues. And in some cases, we do some consulting, where they ask us to go deeper than honestly a software vendor might normally but where we have some expertise, we definitely do that.

I mean, I never want to turn away a client who, who we can help extract value, but our core really is, you know, how do we make help the software drive value? Because at the end of the day, you know, my frustration, as an executive was always that, you know, I'd get the PowerPoint and you know, it'd be 102 pages of insight. But how do I then execute that? Right? It's really hard to do so. And what we're we want to focus on is how do we use data to automatically drive improvement, whether that's data that's automatically improving the search experience, or whether it's data automatically helping navigators. But there is far too much content, there are far too many visitors. And there's far too few resources, whether it's money, or people within these origin enterprises to do anything manually. And so, you know, it's funny, we have a dashboard for all our products that shows the value, etc, etc. And our clients rarely use them. And so we knew that like, that was an early feedback point. You know, we knew that sharing data was not the most important thing, right? using that data, in a way to automatically make things better, was a lot better than sharing a dashboard, which gives some overworked marketer more work to do.

Mike: I mean, trade, I mean, obviously, as a company, you're really focused on value. And I guess one of the ways of measuring value is, is in terms of number of leads and cost per lead? Is that the primary way people measure or are there other ways that people look at value from the product?

Steve: Yeah, I think that the folks that, you know, that's those are certainly Top of Mind measures for all of our clients, you know, they are under pressure to deliver mq ELLs, right. That is the that is the ultimate the ultimate point of the exercise. You know, of course, when we're one piece of an integrated stack, in a very complex business, it's hard to do attribution, right, that is the Achilles heel of everything that marketers do, and quite frankly, the marketing technology companies do. So, you know, what we're looking at is well, what are the metrics that lead up to an M qL, that we can contribute to in some meaningful way and measure from an attribution perspective very specifically? So certainly, we're looking at, you know, a lot of those leading metrics, right. So are we getting more engagement and engagement is a fairly complex algorithm, but it basically means are more people staying on the site? are they seeing more content? Are they progressing more towards their goals? Right, so those are, that's our viewpoint is we want to increase the level of engagement with content on the website, where we can measure those goals. And we tend to refer to them as events because I think goal has a very specific meaning, right? A goal is something that a marketer has defined as the point of a campaign, say, or product manager is defined as the on this page, when somebody gets to it, they're going to take this specific action.

One of the things we do when we evaluate the content automatically on our website, is we look for places where people can do stuff, right. So it could be if you had, say, a commerce element, two of our clients have a relatively small portion of commerce on their website, but they have carts and they have checkouts and those sorts of things. So we look for those sorts of events. But the other things that are more common are events, like, you know, download the white paper, or fill out the contact form, or those sorts of things. And so what we're looking for is signals that indicate that one of those events have taken place. And that of course, you know, once we see a signal that an event has taken place, we're then going to try to drive more people who fit that pattern towards that event. But that's really our goal. So as opposed to leads, I think the most thing you the thing you could most likely attribute our technology towards driving is probably contacts, right that people are actually taking some of those events or and sharing their information. So that now there, they can fall into quite frankly, a personalised experience. Right. So now they can fall into a technology which will nurture them with an email campaign or will, you know, prompt a sales rep to make a call?

Mike: Brilliant, nice. That's really clear. And you said earlier, you're talking about, you know, typically having hundreds of 1000s of visits for a typical customer? I mean, can you talk to me about you know, who benefits the most from using solely segment?

Steve: Yeah, so these are generally companies that are kind of later to the digital game, I think that there are a fair amount of companies very mature companies digitally mature, by the way, you know, it's funny how interesting, you know, a company size almost is not a predictor of digital maturity. But it's somewhat related, but not highly related. But, you know, we're talking to a lot of companies who are a little bit later to the digital game, right, that they're, they, you know, didn't get involved early, but they're looking to advance quickly. And, you know, I think one of the frustrations that these companies often face is that you know, they go to some of these law Large integrated vendors. And, you know, they're faced with, you know, six figure seven figure licence fees. And, you know, equally six, figure seven figure integration, installation fees. And of course, you know, months and months to value. And so, so these so these companies that are coming a little bit later to the game, they see that they're a little intimidated, and now they want to think, well, how can I get started without having to take that huge bite.

So those are companies that are very good for us as well, we deal with some large manufacturing companies, some large chemical companies, medical device manufacturers have been very popular now in COVID. But as these companies who are a little bit late to the game and want to accelerate are very good. And generally, the folks we're talking to are, you know, the people who are really at the, at the tip of the spear, you know, all CEOs with their, you know, favourite, you know, people like be right, I want to go talk to the CMO and I want to have a great relationship. But, you know, at the end of the day, the CMOS don't feel the pain as acutely as, say, a senior manager or director of marketing, right, they are, they live where the pain is. And so, you know, we have a lot of conversations with those folks who are wrestling with, you know, yield on their marketing campaigns with, with, you know, just, you know, engagement on the website, you know, they've got a 80% bounce rate, and, you know, every page has a 90% exit rate, you know, so they're, they're really dealing with, you know, trying to create engagement connection with their clients. But we're fairly industry agnostic, but it's really, you know, helping to talk to the folks who really, you know, are at the tip of the spear with regards to the pain and the challenges that the business is facing.

Mike: That's interesting. So you're almost coming into people who are, you know, lagging behind and give them giving them a bit of a speed boost to catch up?

Steve: Yes.

Mike: And I'm interested in you talked about bounce rate, you know, people having 80% bounce rate, which I know, in on some sites is the case. So say the segment can really make a difference on that first page in terms of serving the right content, can it?

Steve: Yeah, you bet. You know, I think, and I don't think marketers Think about it this, but certainly lay people think about it like this, or people maybe who aren't marketers, but you know, fans, folks, and all those other people who exist in a corporation, you know, they always think about, somebody comes to our website, and they're coming to the homepage, and they're navigating around. And that's not the way it works at all right? A very small portion, everybody, most people come in sideways, what I like to think of is sideways, or they come in the back door, they come in the side door through the garage, because they're most often, you know, go into Google and doing a search. And, you know, they're landing on some random page on the website. And, you know, for a marketer, you know, we spend a lot of our time and attention on the high value stuff, right. So we spend a lot of time on campaigns, and campaign landing experiences, and, you know, increasing yields there, we spend a lot of time on our top products, we spend a lot of time on this homepage, because the CEO thinks it's important. And so we spend a lot of time on those experiences. And they account for a very, very small fraction of the total visits to the website.

And so, you know, part of the reason that, you know, we focused on this anonymous idea was also because there's so much of the content that's anonymous. When you think about, again, somebody's coming to the website on any random page. And then you draw a histogram that says, you know, lists all the web pages and how many visits they got this month, you know, there are probably 150 pages that got 90% of the traffic. And then there are 15,000 pages, they got two or three visits each. But each one of those visits was important to the person who found it. Now granted, a lot of people get to places that Google sends them that aren't very valuable. But again, whoever came into that page, they only got one or two page views a month, they had a purpose. And of course, nobody creates a bespoke experience on a page that gets one or two page views a month. And so, you know, part of our thought was, if we can provide the ability to somehow figure out somebody's on a page, where can we send them next? That helps you avoid that bounce helps you if that's their second page, avoid the exit, it gets you that continued engagement, right, get to another swing at the plate to use a you know, American baseball term, right? Yeah. So, you know, your swings at the plate are the kind of the things that you want, right? You don't want to strike out, you don't want to get out, right, you want to, you know, have a lot of opportunities as a, as a baseball manager to, you know, get people on the field. And so in the same way, as a marketing manager, you want the opportunity to somehow connect with this person. And so if they're coming to the site, and they're, you know, 80% of them are, you know, bouncing out, then you know, anything you can do to reduce that rate is critical. We had one client, who we've done a couple cases studies on this and really study that deeply. And one client in their first six months of having guide box on the page, they reduced their bounce rate by 12 points. And so, you know, it was a pretty significant opportunity for them to turn those one page visits into at least two page visits. And, you know, again, you know, we're all those successful, absolutely not, but would you like to double your opportunity to engage with somebody? You know, absolutely. Everybody wants that every day?

Mike: Oh, that's an amazing stat. And I think, you know, it's interesting, it sounds like you're almost learning about the visitor from the page they land on, because you're effectively inferring how they got there in terms of search is that, crudely speaking, how the AI is doing it?

Steve: It is, but and it's also inferring, you know, why they're there. And again, it's, you know, we've never really studied to say, you know, how often Is it right? You know, we don't do surveys of people to see if we got in their minds. But you know, but you can look at the data, right? And if you're giving somebody a very smart recommendation about, Oh, you like this content, you know, maybe you'd like to see this next. And that's one of the models that we use is it's kind of it's a content recommendation sort of thing, much like say Amazon does product recommendation, what we're trying to do is offer people really smart alternatives. I mean, when you look at any, any large enterprise, and pretty much any company's website, it's organised, like their organisation chart is organised, not how their customers think about their problems. And so you know, not only do they have many ways off the page, one of our clients we counted, they have 70 ways off their pages, because they show this huge menu. And there's this, you know, right side navigation bar, and there's a left side navigation is hugely confusing user experience. And again, you wouldn't do that for your best products. But there's a lot of other things on your website that you just don't have the time and energy to invest in. And so, with guide box, saying, Here's three options to progress your journey some way, would you like to choose one of these three things that seems really smart? You know, it's a way of creating that engagement that, you know, allows somebody to not be honestly intimidated by all the choice that's before them, and much of that choice being irrelevant to them?

Mike: Well, so the scope, I mean, you know, effectively seller segments, sat there, it's it's customising 10s, of 1000s of pages for hundreds of 1000s of visitors, I've got to ask this question, because I'm sure people listening are wondering, it's terrifyingly expensive, right?

Steve: Actually, it's not if you that is, I mean, that's one of the things that while I'd like to choose to charge people a lot of money and make make a lot of money. You know, it's actually it's pretty modest with regards to marketing technology spend, you know, you're spending, you're not spending millions of dollars. And most folks aren't even spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars right there. You know, it's relatively modest, and it scales honestly, to the size of the enterprise. So, you know, we have companies, and as small as sounds weird, but as small as $300 million, so in revenue, so so we can make the solution scales in a way that makes sense for, you know, most of the large enterprise companies that we deal with, you know, the the thing that we're also working on is a way to scale this down, because the models are driven by data. And so, so you need a fair amount of data, but we're looking at is some alternative algorithms that try to do the same predictions that we do a large enterprise and smaller Sharpe enterprises, but in fact, we have a beta of it running on our website, and I don't know how many pages of content we have, but not not 10s of 1000s, that's for sure. And, and so we're looking at ways to scale this down in a way that still creates that meaningful engagement. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the marketer wants you on the site, they want you progressing towards some goal, they want swings at the plate. And so if we can do that, for companies, the scale of john deere, while at the same time doing it for companies, the scale of solo segment, we think there's that's a tremendous opportunity, we're not quite ready for primetime on that scaled down model. Because there's still some things that we have to figure out how to scale on the back end, because as you would imagine, what we did on our website was a little bespoke, but, you know, we're definitely, we're definitely looking at those models. Because, you know, there we, you know, think there's a great economic opportunity for us, and there's no reason it's just the big guys should get all the value from a, you know, better engagement.

Mike: Well, definitely let us know when you've got a product because I'm sure we'd love to have it on our website as well. That'd be great.

Steve: Sounds good.

Mike: I mean, it does sound amazing, you know, for the cost of, you know, probably two or three really good marketers, you can get this huge amount of personalization, that just would be impractical. If you were trying to do it manually. I mean, you know, I can certainly see the potential in terms of return on investment there. That's great.

Steve: Yeah, you bet. I think that's a great way to think about it. I mean, how many people would Do you have to add to get, you know, engagement on the long tail of people who are coming to your website?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so you've given us a little hint about the future in terms of where you might go? Is there anything else that you feel we should cover? Any anything you'd like to talk about in terms of salary segments? Or something about the technology I've missed?

Steve: Yeah, no, I think I think part of it is, you know, one of the things I think we didn't talk about was a little bit more about, like, why is this the moment to be thinking about anonymous engagement. And, you know, anybody who's an advertising is now trying to figure out what to do now with the death of cookies is kind of the thing that's out there. But with the larger trend is is, you know, people are tired of their data getting stolen and misused. regulators have responded that, by that with GDPR, and the California acts and a lot of others that exist around the world. And, and now the software industry, most notably, the browser industry is acting to, you know, limit the amount of data that browsers will transmit to companies. And so this is, you know, most immediately, folks are freaked out, marketers are freaked out by the fact that ads, the ad business is going to change dramatically. You know, we all we heard Twitter and Facebook already talking about how their ad revenues are going to go down. Well, when ad revenues go down, that means advertisers have less opportunity to engage, right, because that's why they're going down. And so, you know, there are certainly some headwinds and significant headwinds, and I think they're only going to increase over the coming years, with how we're using personal information, and especially when you're a b2b marketer, you know, it's already harder to use personal information. And so, you know, to the extent that companies can they really should be starting to think about, you know, how do they create engaging visitor experiences using data other than personal data, because they're already starting at a deficit, right, they, you know, very small percentage of the visitors that come to these websites are engageable, that we can know something about them. And if it's only going to get more difficult, you know, kind of doubling down on a traditional personalization strategy just seems like folly, because, you know, the regulators aren't going to change the direction, Apple, Google and Firefox aren't going to change their direction. And so I think that the smart marketers are not only addressing kind of the current pain they're seeing, but they're actually starting to think more strategically about how are they going to operate effectively? How are they going to achieve their business objectives? deliver those mq ELLs deliver, you know, more contacts, in a world where personal information is going to be increasingly rare?

Mike: Wow, that's certainly a trend we're seeing. And I know, iOS, for example, a lot of people are freaking out over the privacy there. For for the advertising industry. So I think it's a great point. You know, it really is a time when people need to be thinking about what's next. And, and he gives this opportunity for really effective personalization. Without any kind of privacy issues. That's, that's cool.

Steve: Yeah, indeed.

Mike: So assuming we've got somebody listening who's you know, responsible for a website that's, you know, got several 100,000 visitors, or more a month? I mean, is there any way they can get in contact with you? You're the CEO of the company. I mean, yeah, I suppose there's a way they can get you.

Steve: Yeah, they could definitely get me and my emails probably on the website somewhere, but yeah, I mean, honestly, I could actually just email me directly, Steve@solosegment.com or they could go to the website solosegment.com. Hit me on LinkedIn or Twitter. I'm available in all the normal ways. But yeah, I'd be happy to have conversations and, you know, direct them to the right people in our organisation who can be to the conversation.

Mike: Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Steve. Um, there's so much more, we could ask you and find out. All I ask is if you could come back when you do have a product that works with smaller websites, I'd love to talk to you again.

Steve: You bet, Mike. Thanks very much.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

Publishing House Fiera Milano Media Acquired by the LSWR Group

Publishing House Fiera Milano Media has been acquired by the LSWR Group, an Italian leader in scientific and professional knowledge, through the Quine publishing house. 

Providing the latest updates and news for engineers, technologists, and IT specialists, the acquisition allows Quine to expand its range of information and professional training, due to Fiera Milano Media's speciality in technical publishing, B2B communication, managerial training, and digital services. The media house's publications in Industrial Automation, Mechanical, Electronics, and ICT sectors will all move to Quine from the 1st March 2020.

The acquisition of the Fiera Milano Media magazines further extends the LSWR Group's activities led by Giorgio Albonetti, which strengthens the group's leadership position in the engineering sector. Giorgio Albonetti, President of LSWR Group commented "The pandemic crisis has accelerated the transformation and evolution of professional skills. The report, 'Future of Jobs by the World Economic Forum' at the end of 2020 reveals that 50% of all employees will need to retrain by 2025 following an increase in technologies, the economic impact of the pandemic, and the increasing in automation. These are the reasons why we believe it is essential to increase training, updating, and quality professional information right away; we believe it is essential to increase our commitment to the evolution of people's professional skills. The skills and assets acquired by Fiera Milano Media help to consolidate Quine's role as a cultural reference in the field of new technologies and technical knowledge".

Marco Zani, CEO of Quine added "Quine constantly increases its commitment to training and communication in the professional field, also qualitatively, with this new acquisition. The portals and magazines expand the already rich offer provided by Quine with products in the Tech, Construction, industrial production, Ho.Re.Ca., and information and communication technologies; the goal is to continue the work done so far by offering increasingly useful and increasingly interesting content to effectively respond to the challenges that the pandemic crisis and digital transformation impose".

Here at Napier, we are always supportive of an acquisition, and we are looking forward to seeing the direction Quine will take the Fiera Milano Media publications in.



WEKA FACHMEDIEN Offers Reader Test Seal

WEKA FACHMEDIEN is offering companies an opportunity to go beyond classic advertising, with the chance to be awarded a 'test seal'.

The company and product are presented in detail via a product presentation and 'reader test' to an interactive target group and shared across all channels, to allow qualified readers and experts to provide an independent test result. The analysis will detail the testers' initial product impressions, and the test seal is rewarded to the company which was most liked by users, as detailed in the WEKA analysis report.

The product test report can be read on the WEKA FACHMEDIEN website when completed, and will also be shared via all channels.

We wish the best of luck to everyone taking part!


Bodo's Power Systems Reveals Virtual Roundtable for March

Bodo's Power Systems has announced a virtual roundtable on wide bandgap power semiconductors which will be held on March 31st 2021.

With wide bandgap power semiconductors, silicon carbide (SiC) and gallium nitride (GaN), finding their way into more applications, Bodo's magazine will host a 'Bodo's WBG Expert Talk", a virtual roundtable with experts on this topic.

Building on articles already published by Bodo, the event will provide readers with the opportunity to ask the experts questions, either via email in advance or through chat during the live session. Confirmed speakers include experts from companies such as Microchip, Infineon, ROHM, ST Microelectronics, United SiC, Efficient Power Conversion (EPC), and GaN Systems.

At Napier, we think its great to see that there will be such an informative session on this topic, and we look forward to hearing what we are sure will be fantastic feedback from the event.


PCIM Europe 2021 Confirmed as Digital Event

PCIM Europe has been confirmed as a digital event for 2021. Having originally been postponed to the late summer, organizers have now made the decision for the event to be fully digital, due to the ongoing challenges faced by the current pandemic, with the industry reluctant to commit to an on-site event.

PCIM Europe 'digital days' will take place in an online format, across five days from the 3rd-7th May 2021, and will offer suppliers and users the opportunity to expand their knowledge on key developments, and connect with other professionals.

In addition to exhibitor profiles, the conference program will provide a mix of live and on-demand presentations, followed by discussions with the speakers.

Although this is an unsurprising move from organisers, with the future of the pandemic still unclear, it's great to see that a virtual event will go ahead, especially considering that the first PCIM Digital Days last year, was very successful.

To find out more information on the event and how you can attend, please click here. 

A Napier Webinar: Landing Pages: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly


Here at Napier, we understand that landing pages are a key area of your marketing strategy. If your landing page is not optimised for success, your results can suffer.

Napier recently held a webinar 'Landing Pages: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly', which analyses the layout and content of landing pages used by a variety of B2B technology companies. We address:

  • Our honest opinion of good and bad landing pages
  • Factors that influence landing page performance
  • What makes a landing page generate leads
  • Tips, and tricks for easy landing page fixes
  • How the best companies optimise landing pages

Register to view our webinar on demand by clicking here, and why not get in touch to let us know if our insights helped you.

Napier Webinar: ‘Landing Pages: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly’ Transcript

Speakers: Mike Maynard

Good afternoon and welcome to our latest Napier webinar. In this webinar, we're going to look at landing pages, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And hopefully I've got everything set up. So it's all going to work now. Apologies for flicking backwards and forwards when we started to make sure all the the content was set up. So what are we going to do? Well, today, we're going to actually look at what makes a great landing page. So we're going to really try and understand not only what landing pages actually are and what their purpose is, but also how we need to make landing pages and what the industry thinks are basic rules of thumb to make good landing pages, we're going to look at what people do in terms of different landing pages. So we'll look at the automation industry, the software industry, will actually look at what some agencies are doing for their landing pages. And we'll also look at the experts, the people who run marketing automation platforms. And what we'll do is we'll try and have a look and work out what these guys are doing and what's good, and what's not. Or, in fact, what's the good, the bad and the ugly. And at the end of the webinar, we'll finish as we always do with five tips. So top five tips for landing page design, based upon, you know, partly best practice, but also a lot about what we've learned during the during the research we did prior to the webinar when we put together the content.

So we're gonna move on and start off by looking at what a landing page is. This is a Wikipedia definition of a landing page. And there's there's a lot to it. But basically, it comes down to what's highlighted in red. And so the first thing is a landing page is a single web page. I guess that's pretty much given away by the fact it's called a landing page. It is just a web page. But the key thing is, is the landing page display, directed sales copy, that's a logical extension of whatever is promoting that page. So an advertisement or search result or a link. And landing pages are generally used for lead generation. So these are the key things from what Wikipedia thinks is one page that fits within a campaign is a logical extension of whatever drives you to that page. And it should be used for lead generation. This is not necessarily what everybody believes in the landing page. And so we will see that the way some people use landing pages is slightly different. And we'll talk about whether that's the right or wrong way to do it in particular, how important it is to generate leads from a landing page. So we tried to do some research on what makes a great landing page. And lots of people on the internet have lots of very strong ideas about what works and what doesn't in landing pages. In fact, there were so many different ideas, we decided to pick out some of the more fun ones. So people recommended having the right sent to the landing page or the appropriate colours, or to include pain or to include pleasure. And these are all genuine recommendations from the web. And I think you know, the truth is, is that, as we'll see, there are some good practices that people should observe for landing pages, particularly when you're trying to focus on lead conversion.

But actually, ultimately, for all the advice on the internet, the great landing pages are the ones that work best. And there are two things really that landing pages need to do the first obviously, if their lead generation tool is to generate high quality leads, so landing pages should maximise the high quality leads. But also, and we'll look at this later on as we go through. Actually there is a real benefit in landing pages, minimising the number of people who register who aren't potential customers. So minimising the time wasters is a secondary thing, but actually, I think an increasingly important thing for great landing pages. And so I mean, in conclusion, you know, we've been out there we've looked at what all the experts say, whether they be marketing companies or marketing automation tools, vendors. And, you know, there are some general best principles, but few people agree on really what defines a great landing page. And so ultimately, we'd suggest that finding the pages that convert your audience, that's what really matters, and that's what is the most important thing for you and for anyone else building landing pages.

Those of you who are Napier clients, I know some Napier clients and some non-clients here, the Napier clients be familiar with our four step process. And our four step process actually works really well when it comes to looking at landing page development. So our four steps to determine focus, deliver and enhance, the first step determine is really to understand the situation. So what's the goal of the landing page? How does it fit into the campaign? What's it trying to achieve? And that's really important, because that then lets you set the metrics against which you're going to measure that landing page. The second step is focus. That's all about the audience and the messaging. So who are you targeting with the landing page? And then what are their motivations? What's driving them? To engage with you and download the content or fill in the form for whatever other reason? And particularly what stage of the customer journey are they likely to be in? Content offers and landing pages are very different for people who are existing customers, when compared with an audience that perhaps isn't familiar with your brand. So in that focus stage, really think about where the person might be in the customer journey. Delivery is obviously about creating the patient that's about following breast best practice. And what I'm trying to show you is that, you know, whilst there are people being very creative and putting a lot of effort into landing pages, actually, you can create fairly straightforward standard landing pages that are very effective without too much effort. And then the last stage in our four step process is enhance. And, you know, clearly, with landing pages, they are very measurable. So definitely measure test and test again, on those landing pages. It's important to remember, though, that, for a lot of b2b companies, the volumes are not huge.

So a lot of our clients are not looking to sell, you know, a vast number of products, as a consumer company would. So quite often, you'll find that the volume of people completing the form is fairly small. And that may not be enough to signify that any difference is statistically significant or not, I'm not going to go into the massive statistical significance. If you want to understand that a bit more, please play about with our tool we have on our website, which is an A B test tool. And it will actually tell you whether the difference is statistically significant or not. Basically, what that means is once it's statistically significant, the difference is probably due to performance actually being drift different, as opposed to just randomness of who goes to which page. And we see quite often people making decisions, when the sample sizes are so small, that actually it's far more likely to be randomness causing a difference in results, that a difference in performance. So, you know, please make sure you understand that when you do testing. And for this reason, we often see people doing different tests over a long period of time over several campaigns. So you may only be able to AB test one thing in each campaign you run, because you're focusing on high value, but relatively low volume form fills. So if you can keep learning from each campaign, the next campaign and the next campaign will be the best. So it's not necessarily keep testing and testing within one campaign, but across all of your campaigns. So this is really the way to approach it is to think about what we're doing today use this determine and focus stage to really understand what we need to do before we build the landing page and then test. From my point of view, where I see problems is where people think that it's all about design hacks, and it's all about using, you know, the right shade of red in the headline, it's not actually poorly planned campaigns will not really benefit from design hacks, they'll still perform poorly. And the only thing that is really going to work is planning the campaign well, and that needs you to think through the goals, the objectives and the audience and the messaging before you start building that landing page. So here's some ideas on what we think are great landing page designs. We've got eight points that we'd like to bring out. I think like everyone else on the internet, everybody's got their own views this is our view. And it's inevitably not that different from some of the other things you'll see. So the first thing and the most important thing is the landing page must fit the flow of the campaign. If you remember the Wikipedia definition, said that it should be related to the ad or the link that drove people to the landing page. This is crucially important and it is Incredibly often forgotten. So we'll see some landing pages today that really don't fit the flow.

The second thing is a great headline. And it's a great headline is one that resonates with your audience. It's interesting that HubSpot did some research A while ago. And they showed the single most important factor on a landing page, in terms of conversion was actually the name they gave to the content that they were offering. And that obviously is driven in the headline as well. So it's really important to make sure that the title of the content and the headline a really compelling clear layout is very important. It's generally a good idea to include bullet points to make it very easy for people to pick out the reasons why they need to download the content, or what they'll get from downloading the content. And typically, landing pages or standard are laid out in two columns, the left hand column, displaying, you know, what the content is about, and the right hand column being the form. And we'll see that used several times going forward this clear, simple, straightforward layout. And we can compare slightly different approaches from different companies. Calls to Action are very important on landing pages. And if we look at calls to action on landing pages, they really need to be calls to action. So don't be subtle or clever, you really need to very directly say, the reason why people need to download or why they need to fill in the form, and then drive them to do that. And we see people using calls to action very effectively in the headlines beneath the body copy above the form, and in particular on the form submission button as well. And here's a useful tip is on the form submission button, we always recommend highlighting what people are getting. So get my white paper now or download my white paper, rather than what they're doing submit my details. So if you emphasise what they're getting, that will typically increase the conversion rate, because psychologically, people are thinking about the benefit they get, rather than the cost in terms of the data they're giving up. The right copy is very important. And this just needs to be very clear and explain what the person will get for filling in the form. Make sure that copy is very direct. And don't make it too long, make sure it's concise. Shorter is always better on my landing page, the whole goal of the landing page is to get people to convert it is not to get people to spend hours reading detailed copy. So all the copies should be directed towards encouraging people to fill that form out. And as part of that, you really need this inescapable why and I guess this is what a lot of people call, you know, highlight the pain on landing pages. But hopefully the product or service that you're promoting through a landing page will actually have something that they solve. So a challenge or a problem that is going to be solved. So really making clear what the problem is and how you solve it. That inescapable Why is very important as part of that copy.

And we found that urgency definitely helps. And that can be as simple as download now or download today. But I think certainly, you know, what you don't want to do is have more laid back copy, it needs to be very enthusiastic copy. And it does need to say, you know, download now fill in the form now. And that, again, will increase landing page conversion rates. And then finally match the form fields to the offers. And this is a really interesting thing is that when we've looked at form fields, and how many fields are on that form, it's not always that shorter is better. And we've actually seen some landing pages convert better when we increase the number of fields. Now typically, most people particularly in b2b, have more fields than the visitor is prepared or keen to fill in. So typically, I would say reducing the number of fields, reducing the information is going to get better conversion rates. But sometimes when you offer a particularly high value piece of content, or you're offering something that's going to involve work, perhaps you're offering, you know, some sort of assessment or you know, an analytic tool for the customer, then actually then where the value is high. putting more formfields in can actually help increase the conversion rates. Because simply asking for an email when you're offering something of high value, it creates dissonance with the landing page visitor, whereas asking for details if you're clearly giving something of value It reinforces that value. And it seems to work. So really work on making the fields match the offer. And again, ultimately, the only way you can be sure about the right number of fields is by testing. So these are ideas that they are, I guess what you call hacks, as I referred to them earlier, so they don't compensate for poorly planned campaigns. So it's really important to make sure you do the planning. But all of these tips will help you. And we'll talk about some of these as we go through and look at different landing pages. So firstly, we need to find some landing pages to look at. And that's actually potentially quite challenging because most companies don't expose the landing pages that they use, they tend to only be accessible through campaigns. But they're fortunate there is an easy way to find landing pages. And that's by viewing Google ads. So here, people are paying ads and directing to a defined landing page that they've chosen. And so I think we can go and have a look and see what some companies are doing in terms of their landing pages for Google ads.

So the first search we did was looking for a 10 kilowatt variable frequency drive. So this is basically electronics that will power a motor. And a variable frequency drive is is an efficient way of doing that. And 10 kilowatts is a relatively low power level. So it's not a particularly difficult or unusual search, pretty common search and automation. And we produced a number of results when we ran the search. Obviously, if you've run any of these searches, now, you may see the same results, you may see slightly different ones. And this is why we've embedded it in the PowerPoint. So we've got the the pages we wanted to see. So if we look at this, there are four companies that appear at the top in the four potential ad spaces for variable speed drives. And so we're going to have a look and see which ones have the best landing page, what we'll do is we'll actually flip between the browser and the PowerPoint, so that you can see the landing page in full otherwise we'd have to truncate it on the presentation. So let's go have a look at who these four companies are and what they've done. So this is the first company, I'm not entirely sure how we pronounce it. But that is a Chinese company offering drives. And you can see, they've just routed to a product page. And this isn't great, because I'm left with a product page that I can scroll down, I'm not really sure even actually whether they make 10 kilowatt drives. I mean, I do know they make variable frequency drives, which is a start. But I don't know if they make the product I want and all the work is being left with me, I've got to do all the work to find out whether it's a Gd 20, or a Gd 350 that I really care about. And clearly, unless I'm experienced and know that different family names, none of these family names are really going to help me in terms of finding products.

And inverters UK do a similar thing. So perhaps a less attractive landing page. But here again, we see we've we've got a list of products. And we've got the opportunity to buy online or read more. I mean, unfortunately, with some of these products, we don't even know if the product is at 10 kilowatt drive. So we don't even know if it matches. So buying online is not going to be very helpful here. Because I'm not going to go and buy something, if I've got no idea whether it's the right product. And another company here on softstart, UK who are promoting Delta drives, they have an even more sparse product page. And this reading to product pages is quite common as a landing page. And generally speaking, it's a really bad idea. And you know, I have no idea where there are 200 or 2000, or as cp 2000. Drive is what I'm looking for. And it really doesn't help me it's putting all the work back onto me. And I'm very likely to move back and look for alternative suppliers that are easier to find. This is really not a great landing page again. However, not everybody routes to product pages. We actually have a company here KB who brought you to the homepage. And this is interesting because we've searched for variable speed drives a 10 kilowatt variable speed drive and variable speed drives don't actually appear on the landing page. So we go to their homepage, and we scroll down and it's going to tell me about their trade shows. But it's not actually She's going to tell me about their variable speed drives. So, again, not a great solution routing people to the homepage.

So let's summarise what we learnt here. So the product family landing page, so I'll call it, it's not really a landing page, it's a very lazy approach to doing things like Google ads, all you're doing is routing people to an existing page. And in this particular example, we've got a number of problems. So you know, there's a very weak headline, the layout is kind of confusing, there's an awful lot of links all over the place that I could click on. The copy is poor, it's not optimised for lead gen lead generation. And actually, if you look on the right hand side, I mean, the the hero banner primarily shows products that are not the product I want. And they do have a chat icon. So I mean, there's a potential there, I guess, to generate leads. The top thing is search your products. Well, I've already searched I mean, they should know what products I'm looking for, because they know what I searched. And then it's all down to me to try and understand which products and typically products are organised by product families. But the chances are, if I'm coming to the landing page from a Google ad, or from a LinkedIn ad, or some other web source, I probably am not an expert on the company, fact, I've probably got very little idea or awareness about the company, which is why they're running advertising. And so to then require me to navigate via a set of proprietary product family names is really hard work. And it's not a great way to great experience.

So it's not a great way to create a landing page. And the homepage is even less effective. As I said, it prevents presents content that is not related to our search. There's lots of distractions. And even if we click on the menu, and go and have a look at what they're good in Drive technology, even that doesn't tell me where whether or not they have a 10 kilowatt drive. So I have to start going in and looking and researching. It's, again, it's not a great solution. And it's a really bad experience for customers. So don't route people to the homepage. So we've given the world industry information quite a hard time over their landing pages. So perhaps we ought to either pick on another industry or find an industry that does it better. And so let's look at the software development industry. So static analysis is a general term for software that looks at code and tries to identify issues. We did try and search for a specific version of a static analysis tool. But actually, most of the time when we did that we were returned ads that weren't about static analysis tools. And this is very interesting, because we've actually seen some issues, even with this, these results here of poorly targeted ads. So I certainly think you know, one of the things we've learned is that software industry isn't very good at targeting. Anyway, let's have a quick look at some of the landing pages that we got from this search.

So the first landing page is a landing page here from synopsis. And it's an interesting landing page, I mentioned this two column layout, and you'll start seeing people use it in the software sector. So it appears that the software industry is a little more sophisticated. They are thinking about ways to drive leads and generate leads. And they have a landing page here with a form. That's, you know, using a pretty standard layout, it's a pretty ok, kind of landing page. The only problem is it doesn't really follow the flow. If you look at this, apparently synopsis is a leader for sassed, which is static application security testing, which is actually something that is slightly different from static analysis. So it's not quite the same tool as I was looking for. And it's also somewhat self centered in terms of a headline there. You'll also see there's a lot of different menu options here. If the goal is to get people to download the report, then why are you offering all these menu options, it makes no sense to do that. And it's just distracting from the the form, which is where you want people to concentrate. Parasoft is another company, again, similar layout. So we've got two columns here. Interestingly, they've used bullet points and made the bullet points very, very clear, which is generally a very effective way to increase conversion rates is to highlight what you get. And there's a couple of downsides to this page. I mean, the first is is the headline is anything but compelling. It doesn't actually even tell me What they're offering.

So there's a form, but it just tells me, you know that they make static code analysis tools. It doesn't tell me what it's offering, you have to read the text to do that. And you actually have to go and read the text on the form. And the other problem we see with this particular landing page is that were offered a white paper on how to choose a modern static analysis tool. But on the left hand side, the body copy that we have this paragraph of copy is all about how amazing parasoft is. And so again, in terms of that flow, I'm not sure I'm going to read how amazing parasoft is, and then believe they're offering me a truly independent white paper that that's going to help me choose the right tool, I'm just thinking, they're going to offer me a white paper that tells me choose parasoft, because that's the one we want to sell. And you'll see as a couple of extra foot film fields here. And so they're asking more information, which is likely to reduce the conversion rate, although phone numbers optional. And like synopsis, they've got a very clear message, download white paper on the button. Per force is another company, they're doing almost exactly the same offer as parasoft. So they're offering a white paper on how to choose the best static code analysis. But if you look at this, this is a little bit easier to read, it's a little bit nicer layout, don't have such a huge amount of body copy at the start. And they actually have more fields in their form. But I think this is, you know, possibly the best layout in terms of being something that's compelling and interesting. And again, of course, they're using the standard bullet points there in terms of making it clear as to why you need to download. There's nothing in the way of urgency here other than they've changed the download white paper to download now. So they've got a little bit of urgency with the other two didn't. But it's not really pushing and having clear calls to action. And then lastly, we've got a product here called sahi. Pro. I don't want to talk about this in too much detail. But they're offering a an option for a demo rather than downloading a white paper. So the question is, our people when they first discover your brand, likely to want to demo is the very first thing, or would they like something else? before that? So I don't know. I mean, these guys may be right. They may, they may be experts, but it feels a bit of a lazy landing page. In particular, they've got a completely useless form field here, which is your message. So this form you fill in to request a demo? I'm not sure what the message would be other than Can I have a demo, please. So we've got a completely pointless field in here that we really don't need. And I strongly recommend that they take it out. So let's have a look at a bit of a summary. And we'll also have another little dig at sorry, pro when we look at the the page in more detail.

So,again, we're trying to categorise these landing pages. And this is the independent report or White Paper Type landing page. And I think synopsis you know, did they do an okay job of it. It's not brilliant. It's not. It's not something that's compelling in terms of the offer. But the layouts clean, we could do with fewer menu options to distract us. And also, I guess the question is, you know whether this is the right thing for top of the funnel, and it may, it may well work for static analysis. I'm not sure. But often people want analyst reports once they've shortlisted companies, rather than right at the start. As I mentioned before, you know, unfortunately, it's actually about a slightly different topic, or a very specific form of static analysis. And this is an issue with some of the analyst reports. We see this with clients, where they've spent a lot of money on analysts reports. And I understand that, you know, these things are not cheap. They involve a lot of research, and they are really important to the company. But sometimes they get used a little too broadly. And it doesn't matter how compelling This is. If I want a static analysis tool to evaluate the code I've written for my automotive engine management system. I don't care about stuck in a static application security testing. It's not relevant to me because it's not security I want I'm looking for bugs. So they've pushed this white paper, in my mind to a little bit of a broad audience. And that's a mistake with landing pages is when you think you've got a great content offer. You try and offer it too widely, and then you don't fit that flow. You're not in the middle of the flow that really matters. The parasol font is similar, we're going to call it a white paper.

As I mentioned, you know, one of the issues here is the copy is not great. And the headlines not great, I think there's a lot they could do in terms of tidying up what they've written on the page, making it cleaner and clearer, and less of a marketing puff piece, and much more of a reason to fill in the form. Because ultimately, that's why they're running this campaign is to get people to fill the form. And the other thing as well we see with parasoft, is that parasoft have social media icons on their, on their landing page, I see this quite often, it's not uncommon. I always wonder why they're there. You know, I'm not sure anyone's going to tweet, hey, look, I've just clicked through on a parasoft Google ad, I think it's an unlikely thing to do. And I'm really not entirely sure whether they work or not. If they're rooting people to this page from other sources, maybe it would be more useful. But if you're looking at something that's purely driven by advertising, I'd probably remove those, because again, it's more distraction. And then finally, we've got the Asahi pro one, it's an interesting layout, it's still two cons, it's very broad, very wide. And the other thing as well is actually apart from very poor English in the copy. Once you've read the copy and understand what the product is, you actually work out it's not a static analysis tool. So one of the issues of offering something like a demo, is that if you get people requesting it, but you're not targeting the right audience, you could end up not only wasting their time, but wasting your time. So someone looking for a, you know, a C sought static analysis tool might end up arranging a demo with sorry, broke, because that's the only option they've got. And then very quickly, find in the demo, that they're wasting their time. And it's costing you as a company time to set that demo up. And it's also causing a really terrible experience for that user, who might well want test automation software in the future. But at the moment doesn't. So demos are very interesting and are used widely. And we'll see, particularly with some marketing automation tools, it's a very common offer. But equally, I think you have to be very careful that you don't make the big offer straightaway. Because although it's easy to pick on, you know, someone like sypro, who who've not targeted Well, it is actually very easy to find your ads, reaching an audience that's not quite the one you wanted. And you could end up with these spurious form fills. So that that's really where we are in terms of the software. And so what we'll do is we'll go on, and we'll have a look at marketing automation agencies. So we're not running any Google ads, I mean, but clearly, we're going to marketing automation agencies, these are the experts, these guys are going to be awesome. They gotta be awesome.

Although actually, you'll notice SharpSpring, which isn't a marketing automation agency, is running Google ads against marketing automation agency, which probably isn't great. And those guys should really know because their marketing automation company, and again, you know, maybe it works, maybe it's amazing, but my gut feel is almost certainly SharpSpring is probably not getting great results from this particular search. Because people don't want a platform, they've got to run themselves, they want an agency to do it for them. So these three ads, we're gonna look at two, we're gonna look at the the two agencies. And we won't look at the SharpSpring ad that's not related to agencies. So let's see how good the experts are. Interestingly, and none of these were set up, by the way, they all these searches were done, and put together based on some ideas that came to mind. I wasn't looking for things that didn't work. If I click through to protocol, they send me to their homepage.

These guys are the experts in marketing automation, and they send me to their homepage. And if you look at this, you know, it's not really what I want to see if I'm looking for a marketing automation. I mean, there's a special offer here how to unlock the potential of marketing automation. I don't actually want to unlock it. I want an agency to unlock that for me. And okay, as we scroll down, that there are more relevant calls to action. So here's a speak to a consultant today call to action. And we can scroll down and there's actually a free ebook about what is market automation. So they do have some offers that will route to landing pages that have forms and we can have a look at one of these forms now. By clicking on the E book, and you can see again, a slightly different version on what I call the industry standard sort of two column landing page with the pitch here, and then the form on the right. Interestingly, if you look on the right, they're only asking for first name and email address, which actually I think is very worth worth considering. Because these guys do understand about conversion. And they know when they get to the form, that you actually don't need to get everything first time. Once you've got that email address, you can keep communicating. And you can use progressive profiling, keep asking more questions, to understand more about that person. And interestingly, as well, they've got a download and read button here, really pushing the benefit, you're not just going to download an ebook, you're actually going to get to read it. So really highlighting the benefits side. The other agency that appeared on the Google Ads was a company called clevertouch. And interestingly, again, here, clevertouch don't actually read a specific landing page, they read the page that talks about their Marketo services. Now, the first thing I'd say is that Marketo isn't the only marketing automation system in the world. In fact, you know, the good news is, is SharpSpring told me that when I searched, but also obviously, there's HubSpot, and aliqua, and pardot. And all these other systems. So the first thing you're going to do is you're going to get people coming, looking for a martial Information Agency, that then get routed to a landing page that might immediately turn them off. And it's very interesting. So I think here, you know, clevertouch are being very clear. I mean, they're saying their market. So it's really clear right at the top. And they're prepared to pay for clicks from people who don't use Marketo. Because they clearly feel that marketing automation agency is the right search term for them. So they've, I think, almost deliberately got some dissonance here between the ads, and the search term. And then where they route people to, they do actually mention on the ad their market partner as well. And then if we scroll down the page, we can see that there's lots of different information. There's some social proof with some awards. And also some customers. And then as we get to the bottom, we have the form. And they have a fairly simple form here. And they're asking for a job title, company name. And they're also asking for phone number. So asking for quite a lot. So two very different approaches from agencies that are basically direct competitors. But overall, I didn't really see anything that was particularly different from the software, guys. I mean, you know, all the previous companies, so there was a homepage routing. And there was actually a product page. But what I'd like to see is, you know, really what marketing automation companies do.

So these guys have the best data, they have more data on what works and what doesn't. And they should really know. So we're going to have a look and see what's current best practices. So we did some searches. And one of the things we did was was Have a look at HubSpot very popular marketing automation system. I wonder what competitors say and one of the competitors a company called engagement. It's quite a small company relative to HubSpot. And they have a landing page that I found fascinating. If we look at clarity and compelling copy, they're very direct. It is the best HubSpot alternative apparently. And so they're making it clear what they're doing. Don't buy HubSpot by us. They're also highlighting the pain. And HubSpot has a reputation for being relatively expensive. And you can see here there's a very clear highlight of the difference between the HubSpot cost and the engage PayPal cost. So they are being very, very aggressive in terms of highlighting the pain and how they fix it. And they've also got some great bullet points here, you notice they don't have any body copy at all. It's some headings and bullets. And I think a lot of us marketers, we actually quite like writing we quite like the look of our own copy. And sometimes we should take a step back. This is really quite a compelling landing page. And then lastly, and they only asked for the email address, so they're not asking for anything else other than the email address. These guys know that with marketing automation. Once you have an email address, and you can engage with somebody, you can then start building the lies you don't have to get it all up front.

A similar approach is taken with a company called Active Campaign. Active Campaign, I basically routing to a landing page, very different copy. Again, they don't use bullet points, they just asked for your email address. And both of these are starting free trial. As I mentioned, this is very copy and marketing, very common in marketing automation. We can scroll down and see that they've got, you know, rankings from GT, which is a online ranking site. And then they've got lots of information here about the product. And when we get to the bottom again, we've again got a form. So they've got two forms on the page. And they're looking to get people to sign up and promote that is obviously targeted around getting as many leads as possible. But interestingly, you see, they're trying to ask the questions, answer the questions first. So there's quite a lot of information here. And actually, this may be might be an indication of a landing page where a company is trying not to overdo the, the number of leads and focus on people who really are genuinely interested.

So just to recap what we've seen there. And really, I mean, this is what we call the competitive landing page. So this is the HubSpot versus engaged Bay. And we think it's a great example of a good compelling landing page, where you're looking at comparing yourself against another vendor. The immediate trial, as I said, it's not unusual for software as a service, probably won't work in many other industries. So it's not necessarily something we recommend quite often with, you know, clients we're working with, they're offering, you know, b2b equipment, technical equipment, that can cost a huge amount of money. So free trial is not the way to go. It's much more about providing information. But because of free trial costs engaged by nothing, it clearly makes sense for them to do it. So we kind of dropped a hint on recent landing page trends. And it's interesting to see where some of the other marketing automation companies are going. And our opinion is, is that actually, they're really focused on high quality leads, they're not focused on quantity. And this is interesting, because pretty much all of these marketing automation platform companies, they produce platforms, that will give you pure conversion rate, you know, there were this many form fields for this many pages, and no indication of quality in the standard reporting. And so it's interesting, these guys have worked it out. But maybe they haven't quite fed that back into the tools. So what we're going to look at is look at a couple of, you know, longer content rich pages. And there'll be seen to be split into sections, you'll notice different calls to action, and actually different ways of achieving the call to action as well, that we'll talk about as we go through.

So this example here, which is Active Campaign is a good example, where each different section describes a little bit more about the products. So it's a good example of, of the sort of layout, but we see this with many other vendors. So here's another vendor. So Salesforce, and here you can see Salesforce, creating a landing page that's quite long, that's got a call to action at the top to watch a video, it's got information on Salesforce here, we've then got a guided tour offer, we've got more videos in the tour again. And then we've got to talk to the experts. And then we've got a free trial right at the bottom. So Salesforce have taken the view that actually if people get to the bottom, they're probably interested. And so they're probably at the point where I want to try and convert them to a free trial. But they don't want to do it at the top. So unlike Active Campaign, they're looking at a slightly different approach here. But you notice there's different ways to look at content. So you can view a video or you can talk to experts, or you can have a free trial. And that's mixed on the same page. Now, this is very interesting, because typically, you'll hear a rule saying don't mix calls to action, one call to action per page. But actually, all they're trying to do is get you to engage. And I think it's actually very much the same type of call to action. But for different formats, whether people want to see a video, or talk to a salesperson or try the product themselves. That's what they're offering. So it's the same offer, but for different ways for really to meet the needs of different people who could land on the page. HubSpot also do something similar. Now interestingly, HubSpot leave a few menu options at the top. So a limited number of menu options, not the full website menu. And I can tell you that you know, two years ago HubSpot was telling every agency to take out every menu option from the top it didn't work so they've done some testing and changed their mind. on that, but this is a another uncompetitive landing page. And interestingly here, they're pushing a demo. So we've got a button at the top to get a demo, we then got a button almost immediately get a demo in the middle, we then start talking about why, as we move on, there's a lot of copy here to work through. As we keep going lots of lots of copy, lots of information about the products, and eventually another call to action to get a demo. And clearly, this is, you know, looking to make sure people really understand what they're getting when they when they use HubSpot. And so that was the landing pages that we wanted to cover. I mean, I think it's interesting what we're seeing with some of these content, rich landing pages, they do require an awful lot of effort to create. And I would say that if you're not at the stage, where you're creating, you know, really solid two column, you know, landing pages, and you're targeting multiple landing pages, so that the content on the landing page matches what's driven the person for the landing page, don't try and get into building these content, rich landing pages, they're very time consuming, very expensive. And you're just going to struggle to build enough that work. You know, and HubSpot, literally, for example, has a landing page that looks at how they compare to competitors for all their different major competitors. So they've built multiple long landing pages that are just those competitive ones.

The one thing I would say about some of these longer landing pages, though, is that they're actually very good for SEO most landing pages are terrible for SEO, because we're not trying to put content in to make people read the copy, we're trying to put content in to make people download the form. And so they're not desperately engaging pages from Google's point of view, whereas these longer ones are. So there may be an opportunity to create some here. But as I say, you know, you have to get right. And these more complex landing pages require a lot of testing, because if you're not careful, all you do is you distract the person from the call to action, and you never get a conversion, it's much harder to get to get conversions from here, you've really got to design the page, right? So you need a volume of people coming to that page, and you need time to test it to make sure it works. So our recommendation initially is actually the standard two column for most clients, and for most campaigns, is probably the best and most effective way to create landing pages that will give you the best return on investment.

So what are our top five landing page tips? Well, tip one is to create custom landing pages, don't ever route people to your homepage or a product page, it just isn't a good experience, and create many different custom landing pages so that the experience is as smooth as possible, from whatever search or LinkedIn ad, or even link on your email that you've provided people. The second thing is get the targeting rights. And of course, you know, one of these landing pages I talked about that try and filter out the people who are not really interested, they're important if you've not got the targeting, right, if you have got the targeting perfect, and you're only attracting people or potential customers, just get them to fill the form. And straightaway, there's no need to do any more filtering. And I'd recommend being clear and very direct. And and you'll notice that you know, the people who are the experts, the market automation companies, they're not shy about being brave. They're not British when it comes to landing pages. So be very clear about what you're offering and why people should fill it in, and particularly on the calls to action. And we've talked about getting the why right, you know, and I think the engage Bay landing page where it really highlighted the issue of cost and limitations on HubSpot versus engage Bay. That was a pain point for a lot of companies. And they were very clear about how they solved it by charging a lower price.

So I think getting that pain point, right, the pain point for probably most of the people listening on the call today for everybody will not be price, it'll be something else, but understand what you're solving and make it really clear. And finally, don't ask for too much information. And if you look at the the forms that you get from the market information companies, you know, typically they're just asking for email because they know they can use the tool to then get the other information about that person. And there's also data enrichment tools you can use as well that you can generate information as well. So if you've got an email, you can sometimes look up you know, company name and things like that. And then finally, you know, the bonus tip and if you've sat with us through this whole webinar is probably a bit of a downer, but your audience is unique. Nobody's got the answers. We certainly don't have all the answers. So do test different approaches, I mean, follow best practice, but don't follow it to the point that you're not prepared to try different things. You know, some approaches will work with some audiences, and some will work with others. But, you know, it's really important to test and find out what works with you. And then finally, as a summary, you know, the landing pages take work, I mean, it really does take time to create these landing pages, particularly of creating a significant number. But if you're spending a lot of money driving traffic to your website, through ads, or through social or through email marketing, getting the landing page, right is really the key thing in terms of driving the number of leads you're gonna get. And so the payoff from getting the right landing pages is huge.

So thank you very much for listening. And I'm afraid I'm very aware that we've overrun our 45 minutes. So what I suggest I do is if anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me, Mike at Napier b2b dot com, all post in the chat. And what I do is I will make sure that I reply to everyone and cover all those questions by email. And so if you've posted in the chat, I will get back to you via email. So thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. And hopefully we can work together on landing pages.

MachineBuilding.net Welcomes New Editor

Last year, we shared the news of MachineBuilding.Net 's new ownership, and so we were delighted to receive an announcement from the MachineBuilding.Net's team who are welcoming Brian Wall as their new editor.

Known by many in the industrial sector, Brian began his career as a 'classically trained' journalist before moving into technical and engineering publishing. He has been an editor and feature writer across a number of leading titles including Transport Engineer, Engineering Designer (published on behalf of the Institution of Engineering Designers) and FAST Magazine.

With Google analytics revealing that visitor traffic at the website has more than doubled, and sales revenues having also leapt significantly since the acquisition, it's clear to see it's an exciting time for the publication, and we wish Brian the best of luck in his new role.


Handling and Storage Ceases Publishing

The Handling and Storage Publication in Madrid has announced the decision to cease publishing of the print magazine and associated news portal due to the retirement of long term Director Tomás B. Abascal.

Although we are always sad to see a publication close its doors, we wish Tomas the very best in his retirement.

Napier Named as 'Rising Star' by B2B Marketing and Shortlisted for Elektra Award

It's been a week filled with positive news here at Napier, and we are delighted to share that we have been named as a Rising Star agency in the B2B Marketing UK Agencies Benchmarking report 2021. Ranking as number three on the B2B Marketing UK 'Rising Stars' league table, we also appear in B2B Marketing's top UK agency list and in the fastest-growing 15 agencies.

We are also honoured to have been shortlisted twice for best campaign of the year at the Elektra Awards 2020, with our clients Vicor and Semtech.

It's great to have the hard work of the Napier team recognized and we would like to thank our clients for their continued support.

Electronic Specifier to Host 'The Electronics Industry, COVID, Brexit - what will 2021 Hold?' Webinar

Electronic Specifier has announced a new webinar titled 'The Electronics Industry, COVID, Brexit - what will 2021 hold?'. Due to be held on the 24th March 2021, 2pm GMT, the webinar addresses the unprecedented year we all faced in 2020 and will feature industry experts who will offer their perspective from three different areas of the industry. The experts will take a look back on the last year and how it affected the electronics industry, as well as providing insight into 2021 and what the future may hold. Speakers will include:

  • Adam Fletcher, Chairman of the Electronic Components Supply Network (ECSN) who will provide the perspective of the electronics industry as a whole.
  • Rob Rospedzihowski, President of Sales EMEA of Farnell an Avnet Company who will provide insight from the world of distribution.
  • Mark Davies, Global Head of Sales at Harwin who will provide the point of view of the manufacturer.

At Napier, we are looking forward to what will be a really interesting webinar, and what we are sure will reveal some fantastic perspectives into the current shape of the electronics industry.

To register for the webinar, please click here. 

The Energyst Launches Modern Fleet Publication

The Energyst publication has recently announced the launch of its new EV magazine, Modern Fleet.

With the EV market growing rapidly, Modern Fleet aims to address the issues businesses face in the energy management sphere. With a focus on targeting those responsible for managing fleet and energy infrastructure within an organisation, the publication addresses energy problems that were once a side issue for fleet managers, but which have now come to the fore due to the UK target to have Net Zero emissions by 2050.

The magazine is split into three core areas and covers:

  • The latest electric cars, and development in fuel cell vehicle technology
  • News on charging infrastructure, covering the latest charging kit, apps, maps and standardisation and battery management
  • Energy management including V2G, onsite generation, grid connection and hydrogen supply

At Napier, we are always delighted to receive an announcement of a new publication, and it's great to see that Modern Fleet will address relevant and important issues within the EV market.

To find out more information, and to read the first edition of the magazine, please click here. 

A Napier Podcast: Interview with Chris Newton - Intellimize

In our latest episode on Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast, we interview Chris Newton, VP of Marketing and Business Development at Intellimize, a website optimization company, that intelligently optimizes each buyer’s path to drive more revenue, and more leads from websites.

Find out more about Intellimize, as well as Chris's insights into why website optimization can have real meaningful impact, by listening to the episode here. 

To stay up to date when a new episode is live, click one of the below links to subscribe:

Transcript: Interview with Chris Newton - Intellimize

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Chris Newton

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to the latest episode of marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm talking to Chris Newton, who's the vice president of marketing and business development at Intellimize. Welcome to the podcast, Chris.

Chris: Hey, Mike. So happy to be here today. Thanks for inviting me.

Mike: Thanks so much for coming on. Do you want to give me a little bit of background about your career, you know, what you've been doing in the past? And how it's led to you joining Intellimize?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I maybe take a little bit of an unusual path to get here. I started as an engineer in college, when flew planes for the Navy for a while, went to business school and somehow ended up in marketing where I have worked at a number of organisations leading marketing, you know, startups Exactly. In the sales compensation space, most recently at Influitive. Prior to Intellimize, were building out customer communities. And excited to come to Intellimize A little over a year ago, I was really drawn to the opportunity by the people that were here, really, the founders are so impressive and, and their leadership and team and vision, I was thinking about who do I want to spend every day with solve problems with and you can really, I guess, optimise your career around the paycheck or how you want to feel every day. And those folks were people I wanted to join this company and build it up with. And the second thing was really about the product itself is unlike anything I'd seen and solved a core problem that I had experienced firsthand as a marketer, which, you know, was so compelling. And so when you see customers getting value out of it, it resonates with you. And you know, I've never seen a Mar tech solution before that was actually showing somebody the incremental dollar value, like what have you done in the last 30 days? How much money is this worth to my organisation? Huge numbers right at the top of the main dashboard, it was really cool. I felt like this was the start of something new. And I wanted to see how I could be part of it. So that's how I ended up at Intellimize and have been here a little over a year, like I said.

Mike: Awesome. So you swapped a fighter jet cockpit for a marketing dashboard? I'm not sure that's a that's necessarily a move up and exciting, is it?

Chris: Well, yeah, it's a different kind of exciting, I guess, or Hey, I was actually flying p3. So we were chasing submarines back when there used to be more submarines to chase. Wow,

Mike: Oh, that's cool. But now you've you've moved into website optimization. I mean, that's not necessarily an area people get too excited about I mean, what why does that excite you? What do you think is, is new and different about it?

Chris: Well, I think marketers spend so much time and money, thinking about, Hey, how are we going to run programmes that reach out to people and we're going to get people to come to the website, and we're going to do ABM campaigns that get people to come to the website, and we're going to do, you know, paid ads and spend all this money to get people to come to our landing pages. And that's good. But like, we're thinking about this all the time, and that I feel like some of the incremental gains that can be had there, you know, maybe harder to come by then what if we just focus on the website and those landing pages, there's a huge opportunity to improve the experience, the engagement, and the conversions on the site, right, there's a meaningful business value. If you get more of the people that are already on your site, to do the things you want them to do to convert in ways you want them to convert, and maybe that's a purchase of something in a shopping cart and checkout. Or maybe it's a sign up for a free trial, or download some content or engage, you know, with a subscription to your newsletter. If you only raise those conversions by a few percentage points, and as our customers have seen, on average, like 46%, can you dramatically drive business results, you can have a real meaningful impact and change what you're doing. So all of those efforts, everything that you're focusing on to get people to the website is now worth a lot more than it was before. So that's why this area is so exciting to me.

Mike: So 46% a huge number. But I mean, traditionally, I guess it's been done by a B testing. And that's, that's a hard grind. I mean, I saw on the website, I think you said this, this is actually something you came up with was this comment, friends don't let friends run A/B tests. I mean, I love the thought of not having to run A/B tests anymore. But can you explain how you optimise without running A/B tests manually?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I was having a bit of fun with that headline, I have to say, and it's one of a dozen or so that are running on the site. Right now we're of course, optimising and measuring and see what what works and what makes sense. There's a couple other fun ones, you know, you know, stop a B tests and like it's 2012 it's another that I like a lot. You know, there's no experimentation is good, right? And I've spent so much time in my career, probably guilty is the right word to use feeling guilty about not running more AV tests, there's so much work though. And they're so slow, and they're so limiting and what you can actually test. And so it always just kind of got to be a lower priority. And what we're talking about friends, old friends, run a B tests with machine learning, we have a far better way to run a lot more experiments and get a lot more value, it's less work for the marketing team, the results are going to come in faster, the results they're going to end up with, they're going to be better. So you know, I would say anybody's still do AV testing. They're just, they're wasting their time. They're settling for less, you know, that friends can allow it the way I see it, right? So that's how I got with that headline. And I think that, sure, it's meant to be a little bit provocative. People are thinking about, well, I should be doing more experimentation. Absolutely. I don't want to say that's not it. But hey, there's better ways than A/B testing.

Mike: That's, that's awesome. I love the idea of it being faster, better, and also less painful. That sounds great. And so if someone was using a telomeres to optimise, say, their homepage or landing page, how would they go about it? I mean, what's the process? If it's simpler than a B testing? I mean, what are you doing as a marketer?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So we, we have a weekly meeting with every one of our customers. So maybe we just start, you know, talking about it from that standpoint. So as we sit down, we've got a conversion rate optimization expert meeting with our client, and we'll talk to them about their, their website or their landing pages. And we'll say, hey, what are what are you experiencing today? What's, you know, what kind of results are you getting? What are you trying to do and, and let's talk about programmes or campaigns or things you might be running that are important context for, you know, some of the messaging and copying might, we might want to test or experiment with instead of what's there on the base site today. And we'll bring in some ideas from things that we've seen work on other sites. So it sort of starts with, you know, some ideation around what we want to get done. And, you know, through that process, we're identifying all these different things we want to test and establishing what are the goals of testing it. And we feed those into the intelligence platform, we actually have web development resources that help people code these things up. So you don't have to rely on you know, your own dev organisation or client team to do that we can, we can make that come to life for you.

And clients, actually, you know, you've met one week, you've picked five ideas that you want to have you on the website, they come back, you know, either before that they can log into the app or the next weekly meeting comes around, you can review it together, and they get to look at in preview mode, what each of these things is going to look like when it comes live on the site. And if they like it, they just click a button. And now it's moved into rotation. And what intelligence does with all these ideas, is we run them in parallel. So even if you had a really simple, you know, Page Setup, where you had four images, and four headlines and four CTAs. And that was the only things you were doing that still 64 different possible page combinations that we can serve up, right. And we will look at the data for visitors that come in, you know, contextual data, behavioural data, maybe there's firmographic, or demographic information that's available about them. And the machine is going to quickly learn with each visitor, each successive visitor to the site, which of these possible page combinations resonate the most, and work the most in terms of driving conversions that are aligned to those goals that you set at the beginning. So the in the simple way is come up with a bunch of ideas to test, let the system run a whole bunch of those in parallel, and serve up the ones that are going to have the biggest impact. And that's the way to think about what we do.

Mike: And so that the system is handling all that complex maths to work out, what's the best combination, rather than testing each thing individually. It's doing simultaneous tests, and then presumably some quite complex number crunching.

Chris: Yeah, so you know, there's, there's a whole category of work that we're used to with A/B testing around, managing those tests and looking for statistical significance and, and waiting for that to play out. And, you know, depending on the traffic to your site, that can take quite a while sometimes you never get good results. If the test if you know, the two things are, are, you know, similar in performance, you never get a clear winner. I think the advantages of our approach are that because we're optimising each and learning with each visitor, we're able to start shifting traffic towards the ones the ideas that are performing better and gaining more value for the organisation. without waiting, we don't have our bar that's quite as high. We don't have to answer what's best for everyone forever. always like, that's what statistical significance is meant to tell you. We're looking for what's best for this group, you know, this micro segment of people that have these characteristics, really with, you know, our average customer, they're testing 177 ideas, 78 million different page combinations is what that turns into. That's more possible segments than there are visitors to the site A lot of times, right? And so how do we decide which of those are the appropriate things to show to the individual that's there, that's what the machines doing for you. And you can't manage that there's no way to scale that if you know where the human A/B testing, there's no way you can run those tests quickly enough, and completely enough to get the comprehensive experimentation at scale that this approach allows us.

Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, you talk about all these tests that people are running simultaneously. I mean, obviously, if you're doing classic AV testing that would require incredible traffic volumes. I mean, presumably, you still need a pretty huge traffic volume for this, or am I wrong?

Chris: Well, I think he probably huge isn't the word. But let's talk numbers a little bit, we'd like to see, you know, a great place for us as if we've got 1000 uniques a page, you know, in a day, or 30,000 a month, maybe if you're measuring monthly, that's a fantastic place for us to start. A lot of great b2b sites that we work with, you know, are in that range, or, you know, you don't necessarily need the huge consumer volumes, consumer site volumes to have this work, it will work with lower volumes than that, and I and some of our customers absolutely are a little bit lower than that just takes a little bit longer. It's always going to be faster than a B testing. I'll be clear about that. But it really may not take as much traffic as you think. But yes, it is helpful to have that baseline 30,000 pageviews a month and up, and that's going to give the machine the kind of the right pace that it needs to learn and understand and make those decisions in a way to drive really great results for your team.

Mike: That's amazing. I mean, 30,000, pageviews is not a huge number for b2b that, you know, you can certainly clearly do things with a traffic level that you know, sometimes you wouldn't get the A B test result until the campaign's done I think.

Chris: Yeah. And like I I said, we're working on on this a little bit we were talking to people about it and and one of the marketers I was talking to she she looked at me she's like never you never like it doesn't get doesn't give you an answer. I don't care how long you wait, like you can't get a result. And that's what we're trying to fight against. How do we help people like that, that have, you know, some traffic get better business results? Now, they can't wait for that test that that may never come through?

Mike: Fascinating. So you think you're an interesting company, actually, because rather than selling marketing technology as a almost a self serve, web based product? You're selling that consultancy, as well? I mean, is that because it's difficult to use? And you need to support customers? Or why don't you provide the consultancy?

Chris: Well, I think we have learned that there are some specific skill side, I don't know that it's overly complex, although certainly the, you know, the web developers, those guys don't find it complex. But for me, it would be pretty complex if I tried to do that. But these are experts that really understand these things, the intricacies of, hey, what's possible with you know, conversion rate optimization, what kind of experiences should we be thinking about what has worked in other situations, like the nuances of how do you optimise a shopping cart to, you know, have that completion step that is, you know, so important to, to make the actual purchase, they're going to have seen some of these things before and bring that kind of expertise.

The reason that we incorporate our offering with both the platform and the services, is we've seen that it drives far better results for our customers, we have this weekly cadence of meetings, there's always new ideas five a week coming into the system is that is the goal that we set with each client. And as the machine has more options, or things that it might test, and, and work with, you're going to get better results. So if you learn this week, hey, we tried these five things, two of them weren't any good. Two of them were pretty good. And, and one was fantastic. Let's take that one. That was fantastic. And let's come up with five new ideas like that. Right. And so it's that, and those are going to take you even beyond where you you got to the week before. And so it's that weekend, week out constant iteration, improvement refinement, like you don't get to the 46%. On the first week, that happens after, you know, we've worked through some cycles and some iterations and learned what is working for different groups and how do we set these things up and understand the types of changes that are really going to make an impact on the site and Because of the way we're able to work with websites, really, everything's up for grabs. And in a lot of ways, we had a recent webinar where Sumo logic as a customer, were talking about things that they were doing on their pricing page, things that they were doing in the nav menu, changing the organisational structure, including pop up CTAs, within the menu, all kinds of different ideas, whatever you think, might make a difference to the customers, and the people that are interacting on your site, and help them find what they need, so that they might convert and the way you hope they do. Those are all things that that we want to talk about and figure out how to test and see if those ideas are actually any good or not.

Mike: That's amazing. I mean, it sounds very much like one of the conclusions, we ran a webinar recently about AI marketing, and we came to the conclusion that AI is not necessarily going to put us all out of a job, but it's gonna make us all much, much better at our jobs. And I think, you know, you've almost got that combination of personal and AI making a superhuman.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, we like to say, I don't know that AI is going to push people out of their job. What I do think is, AI is going to make people much more effective. And we want to marry the humans and the things that they're so good at, with the things that the machine is good at. So that what's the machine good at, it's fantastic attesting all of these things, and looking at all the nuances of the data that are available in the browser that it can use to determine who might see what, and build on that and refine all those ideas. Fantastic. It can run, like I said, you know, millions of page combinations and keep that all straight. People can't do that. But what people can do is come up with the next creative idea, they can write that ad copy. And we don't want to hand over the creative decisions. And that may, you know, to the machine because people are so good at that. But companies have invested a lot to establish these band brands, and they've marketers are creative on how to build on that brand, and how to how to engage their audience. And if I'm marketing to a marketer, something that's maybe slightly cheeky, like friends, don't let friends or an AV test could work well. But that might not be the exact thing I want to try. If I'm, you know, selling to other types of buyers that that don't appreciate that in the same way, right? There might be something else for the persona that we're trying to reach there, that's gonna be different. And that's what the humans bring to it that, you know, the humanity married with with the machine can do that gets us the best result.

Mike: Interesting. And I guess, sometimes you can have the humans having ideas of what would work better? And actually, it turns out that they're wrong. I mean, do you have any, any examples of insights you've had from the system that have been either surprising or, you know, perhaps change the way you approach things?

Chris: Well, I think we're often wrong, a lot of things that we try, don't work. And but you know, one of the things that was kind of most surprising to me is actually, that it's so there aren't a lot of universal truths. Maybe there's a few but a lot of times, things are so different in different situations. We had a one of our customers from RV was speaking Reckitt Benckiser was speaking about the work she's doing with directs and shawls. And she said that, you know, we're dealing with, you know, France, Europe, and the UK, and German markets and different websites for each. And she was saying that pretty much anything that works in the UK, will not work in France doesn't matter. Whatever it is, it's not gonna work. The buyers are different, they look at the site differently, they have different things. And so you have to understand, you may have a hypothesis, that's where you always want to start. But you have to understand that what you think of as best practice or something that's proven, and we just know, this works. And we can apply it in different contexts. And even for the same brand, just changing that regional location, made all the difference in the world. And you can imagine it's even more different from one brand to another, especially when your goals and objectives and the things you're trying to do are, are different than you know than the others might be doing. So that's what's so surprising to me is that there aren't the universal truths. And it was it gets us back to the reason. We like to let the machines figure these things out in each individual specific context, so that we do end up with the best answer for that client.

Mike: That's, that's fascinating. I mean, I think we all search for the magic bullet solution. I think we all know deep down inside, it probably doesn't exist.

Chris: Yeah, always a challenge.

Mike: So one of the things I'm really interested in with the use of AI is that quite often you're looking for conversions in terms of lead generation. And obviously, with b2b it's not just the number of form fields. You It's actually the quality of those form fields. And whether they turn out to be customers. And if they turn out to be customers, maybe how much they spend. I, I'm intrigued to know, how do you deal with that within a system that that's tied into the web? Can you understand value of leads?

Chris: Yeah, that's the that's the thing. So we have the ability to set multiple goals, objectives on, you know, each page on it, you know, for the different experiments that you're running, there can be different things that you're, you're trying to accommodate, accommodate or accomplish on that page. And each one can have its own value. So these things are weighted in different ways. So the high value conversations are more highly prioritised by the system. And there's, you know, some really good examples of customers that are sort of simultaneously increasing quality and decreasing quantity at the same time. one that comes to mind is Looker shared a story like this at the serious decision summit, where they were driving 44%, more sales qualified leads for the sales team, and at the same time decreasing the total quality quantity of leads that were being passed.

So the sales guys were getting more of what they wanted those qualified leads, and less of what they didn't want, you know, the leaves that weren't going to go anywhere. You know, another great example of this is our customer drift on their site. They're their biggest traffic pages that powered by page, everybody sees the drift bot on different sites, and you have the opportunity to click through and see, hey, how is this working? And you can see what's powered by this company draft and what do they do and on that site, they are looking at the data about you and they're able to pull in data from different sources, firmographic data and understand, hey, this is someone that's from a large enterprise, this is someone from a small business, and they can quickly we don't change what happens in that drift bot itself. But we can, there could be multiple ones that are there to serve. And that's in fact, what happens where we can lead someone down the path of for a small business, you know, self service, you know, free trial, if it's a larger company, let's lead you down the path to talk to sales and set up a custom demo for what that might look like there. And so you can, in that case, get those highest quality, highest value, large company leads to the you know, the human sales selling organisation, and at the same time, provide a strong experience for the smaller business that they're able to come in and spend themselves up and figure out, Hey, does this work for me or not? From the self service side?

Mike: Well, it sounds like we're back to the better results with less effort, which is great.

Chris: Well, you have to be this is where, you know, you'd be a little clever, and you think about what's coming and how do we want to divide this and how do we set it up? And then those are the conversations that we have weekend, week out with our, you know, conversion rate experts, and that's how we can help these companies accomplish those goals. Cool.

Mike: I mean, you said that you don't need huge amounts of traffic. But it feels to me that there's a lot of technology behind this product. And also there, there's a lot of manpower. I mean, is this a really expensive technology?

Chris: We always look at the expensive in terms of you know, what's the ROI with every client, we we look at the opportunity, if we are able to increase conversions on this website by some, you know, reasonable percentage, let's just say 10%? Not the, you know, our average that we've seen, but 10%, what does that mean, in terms of a business value, and if we can look at that, and understand and see opportunities for us to work with them and apply this technology in a good way. And it's sure a solid ROI that justifies the business case. And we feel good about working with those folks. I mean, you can only say an investment is expensive. If there's not, you know, a commensurate payback, right. So we're certainly not the, you know, a cheap solution, if you're just looking at the, you know, the price, this is not this is a significant investment, but you're looking for submit, like, game changing, you know, meaningful business results that are going to come out of this. And, and that's why we think the investment is warranted.

You know, the team that pulled this together are the founders of the company used to run, you know, a engineering team at Yahoo with hundreds of people that was doing all the machine learning, driving the content, personalization, when Yahoo was the largest busiest website, on the web. And they've taken those learnings refined them over the years and built this package application that works for smaller volumes for the more flexible cases. And that we're working with using with all these clients that we have today. And it's that kind of unique background and experience and pedigree and understanding, you know, what you can do with hundreds of engineers with machine learning and, and distilling it into the solution we have today. There is a lot of complexity and technology and, you know, learning that's baked into this but that's why we get the results. We do.

Mike: Amazing. And do you see AI actually driving the cost down? I mean, presumably, the AI will be able to do more and more over a period of time. Do you see that? accessibility to AI tools increasing for marketers?

Chris: I think it's possible. But what I see happening faster is we're getting better in the way we're applying AI and driving better and better results from the the technology. So we're looking at how do we take what we're doing today and learn even faster? And and help companies, you know, more quickly identify those highest value leads that we were talking about a minute ago and more quickly achieve the business results that they're going after? And I think, in our case, we're we're a lot more focused in the conversations with our customers of, you know, how far can we push this? How much can we do? How much better results do we get? We don't end up having that conversation about how do you make this cheaper for us? That's not the the focus of where we spend our time.

Mike: So you're really it seems you're really focused on the return rather than the investment side? It's like, how can we boost that return for our customers?

Chris: Oh, yeah. And you know, where else can we use this and drive value we find ourselves. I mentioned it, you know, an example earlier, where we're working in, you know, across multiple brands and multiple countries, that's, you know, sometimes we expand, we'll work with a core demand Gen team, as well as their ABM team and a separate, separate project. And there are ways to apply this, you know, the person that's spending all that money running digital ads to all the get people to these landing pages, that might be a different team that's running the core corporate website. But both are amazing places to deploy this capability. And, you know, if you're sweating, because you spent all these dollars to get people to those landing pages, and you're not really getting that the results you want to see, hey, we'd love to have a conversation about that.

Mike: That's great. I mean, I think, you know, to summarise, I mean, if people are interested in learning a bit more, how would they learn more about untelevised and maybe investigate whether it's right for them?

Chris: Well, first thing I would suggest is, of course, just check out our website and telemachus.com we've got some you know, good content there that will help you understand a little bit more about what we do. There's a nice how it works button, you can click on and that'll take you through, you know, some of the things that we talked about lots of good customer examples there as well. We rely really heavily on to help people understand this, on the examples that are, you know, the great marketers that we get to work with are achieving today. There's an email list you can sign up for to, you know, keep in touch. And of course, if you're serious about talking to sales or moving more quickly, and really investigating the potential for your business, there's, there's the request demo opportunity. And we'll we'll set up something that's customised to what you might need and what you're looking to do.

Mike: So amazing. And this has been fascinating. I could talk for hours actually, there's so many examples you've given that was so interesting, but is there anything you feel I've forgotten to ask or anything else you'd like to tell the listeners?

Chris: Um, no, I think we've covered a whole lot of things I mentioned before a little bit about, you know, the traffic and what's required. So hopefully, that's helpful for people that are thinking if this is a fit for them. I can also say we work primarily with, you know, b2b organisations, a lot of them SAS companies, and e commerce companies today. And, and, you know, so that's where we have the most experience, and then and the best examples where, you know, moving beyond that, but hopefully, that's helpful for people to understand, Hey, is this a fit and, and what would make sense for them in terms of, you know, connecting with us?

Mike: That's great. That's really helpful. I mean, I guess Lastly, if anyone has been interested by what you've said, whether it's about instead of mice or about flying jets, what would be the best way for people to get hold of you or contact you?

Chris: Yeah, I'm just Chris@Intellimize.com. And we'd love to pick up the conversation there.

Mike: Thanks so much, Chris. I really appreciate it. It's been a fascinating half hour. So thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast.

Chris: Thanks a lot, Mike. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

ASPENCORE Announces Next-Gen EV & AV Virtual Conference and Expo

ASPENCORE has announced the launch of a new virtual conference, with the 'Roadmap to Next-Gen EV & AV Virtual Conference and Expo' taking place from the 23rd-24th March 2021.

Hosted by EETimes, the virtual conference will provide keynotes, panels and lectures covering the pitfalls and challenges facing new vehicle designs, with the aim to provide vehicle designers with the building blocks to successfully develop power-efficient, advanced EVs with automated features.

The virtual conference will work in similar ways to a live exhibition, featuring a fairground, exhibition hall and conference area. The exhibition, which will feature virtual booths from leading automotive companies will be live from March 23rd at 13.00 CEST, with a live chat tool available to enable visitors to directly contact personnel at the booths.

The technical conference will focus on several topic-specific sessions and will include keynotes about major technical trends, market requirements, and new applications areas; as well as panel discussions with industry experts and technical presentations about products and solutions.

For more information on the speakers to expect, and how you can attend, please click here. 

A Napier Podcast: Interview with Abhi Yadav - Zylotech

In our latest episode on Napier’s Marketing B2B Technology Podcast, we interview Abhi Yadav, Founder & CTO at Zylotech,  who shares his journey to founding Zylotech, and how the platform adds value to present B2B marketers with the ‘full picture’, providing several sets of data to help them truly understand and communicate effectively with their website visitors.

Find out more about Zylotech as well as Abhi's views on how intent data is changing marketing in the future, by listening to the episode here. 

To stay up to date when a new episode is live, click one of the below links to subscribe:

Transcript: Interview with Abhi Yadav - Zylotech

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Abhi Yadav

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to another episode of marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I've got Abhi Yadav, who is the founder and chief technology officer of Zylotech. Welcome to the podcast, Abhi.

Abhi: Yeah, thank you. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike: Great. So this just talking a bit about Zylotech, can you just explain what the company does? And you know, what you're trying to achieve in terms of providing tools to marketing professionals?

Abhi: Sure. So Zylotech is a b2b customer intelligence company. We, we take pride in building this category called CDP customer data platform. Even though we're CDP plus, what we really help is b2b revenue ops team, kind of help with their unifying their data, build a foundation, help with data quality, and helping them with ICP enablement, ABM, and kind of revenue maximizing approach with client data at the right time, right place. That prepared content.

Mike: Fantastic. So, I mean, one thing I'm interested in is how did you get to the point of starting zolo tech, I'm not sure that people start out in their career with, I really want to build a customer data platform. So talk me through your background, because it's very interesting in terms of some of the things you've done.

Abhi: Yeah, no, absolutely. So all my life for almost two decades, I have been, I've been a great champion of customer centricity back then. I'm an engineer, an MBA, call myself as a business nerd. You know, with product focused tech entrepreneurship by AI, I believe, what we try to help with companies is, is how to activate their data and decision into something contextual, for their existing customer. I, you know, in past life, we used to call this customer lifecycle automation. I had, from, you know, from my G days, back then, with many startups, I have tried for this infinite game of customer 360 in terms of helping, you know, revenue team, mostly marketing sales, in kind of fully leveraging their customer data without worrying about, you know, building a whole engineering capability or a data science capability, necessarily more automated fashion. And that's, that's what we've been doing my early life.

Back here in, in, in around 2012. I took a sabbatical, I was still in my 30s, early 30s. So went back to school, did my full time MBA at MIT Sloan. This is also an interesting time because we were pretty intrigued by what Netflix and Pandora rose and Amazons of the world doing is making, you know, customer centricity at a, at a whole new level, and making it very individualized, you know, individualised content, things like that. And that really inspired while I was in the school doing this MBA project, I thought all my life being a data science, data scientist, would be pretty exciting that we bring this in b2b, where things are far more complex, the individual is a moving target, and relationship matters of the individual with the company, you're targeting. The company in itself is pretty complex, when it comes to decision making unit, what you're trying to buy, and what you're trying to sell into. The life stage varies, you know, content varies by individual, if I'm a CMO, I might like to, if I'm trying to buy a technology, I might look at something, you know, which will give me a return on investment, you know, kind of kind of business case around it. But if I'm a I'm a user group, I'm playing up. I'm a team trying to buy a technology solve my day to day grunt problem of data quality, or trying to get a piece of software which will keep my data live or manual And save tonnes of hours of me doing grunt work, you know, I want to, I want to hear some of those things into the appropriate content from a vendor.

And so, you know, when we were in school doing this academy project, HubSpot was in our sort of, you know, LA and often used to hear from Brian or manage the whole content marketing boom, and, you know, Todd, it's pretty inspiring. Building content would be cool. This is the future of b2b marketing, and marketing automation and things like that. But then, you know, at some point in time, it boils down to contextual content, you know, sometimes have to dealt with individual, like, who this person is, who's, where is he in the customer lifecycle? You know, what persona is this, you know, what, how we should, you know, connect with them, is to, and that's inspired us, that we should be a data and decision engine, to basically activate some of these content orchestration or campaign or marketing automation tools, where, you know, a b2b marketer, or, or an optics could basically activate some of these appropriate content at appropriate time, you know, very contextual and to the right person at the right time sort of thing.

Mike: Okay, so, so while you're trying to do is you're trying to basically determine what would be the right content for each particular website visitor, for example, as they come on to the web? Is that, is that what you're trying to do?

Abhi: Yeah, and, you know, more appropriately to say, you know, market is always have gone down. But they don't know, when Mike, who just came up on my website, who is Mike, you know, your cmo, you see a potential user potential buyer. You know, what is he looking at? From that context, we try to bring that identity, you know, instead of unbundling that identity, but also kind of, you know, helping Connect dots with respect to what you would call as contextual content to the mind.

Mike: Okay, okay, that that makes sense. So, I mean, I think one of the things people listen to podcasts might be a bit confused about is the difference between different sort of platforms. So you've got your customer database, you've maybe got a marketing automation platform, you've then hear about customer data platforms. And I think, you know, if you go to the xyla, tech website, you start talking about customer intelligence platforms, which is your CDP plus plus, can you just explain those terms? And what each of those particular solutions do? And how they differ

Abhi: Yeah, no, absolutely. So we often use this, you know, framework to explain everyone that if you look, if you, if you have these three DS, you know, data management and decision management and delivery management, you can sort of bundled all kinds of data management orchestration and ableman. Storage, you know, all kinds of those solutions into that data management. Well, decisioning is more the algorithm the models, the AI, the analytics, or, you know, which kind of tells you what's the potential score for churn? What's the prioritisation? Where do I, you know, what do I do when you know, how do I sort of apply something at the right time. And then the delivery is basically the everything to do with sort of activation layer, depending on what's the channel could be a chat bot, it could be an marketing automation tool, it could be your CRM, it could be anything, which helps you kind of activate take an action, you know, the last mile. So if you look at a typical marketing scenario, people have been focused mostly on the lead funnel, all this while being poor getting all kinds of spray and praying, campaign lead gen.

And then when this account-based marketing boom came in, people have started realising the importance of what we call hybrid funnel, or something where you do need to lead but you also need to focus on the accounts you cared for. And we took this, you know, into a more advanced form of what we call as ICP enablement, because in b2b, there's no concept of like customer per se, so we call this as ideal customer profile. So going back to your question, you know, it the customer intelligence platform for us is, is basically one source of data and decision system which Helps unifying first and third party data for the accounts you're going after, so that you could basically do a con prioritization, you could do ABM enablement, you could basically activate all kinds of kind of proactive campaign, then instead of doing reactive marketing, and you get a lead, you got to enrage, you got to do this, you're gonna find out who this person is, and then send the content, this basically helps in kind of automating the marketing automation systems, who has a lot of content, but they just don't know how to segment the data, how to segment an individual how to segment an account, and who may be the relevant account ID relevant time, you know, to basically activate a content. So we're the data and decision engine, we call this as customer intelligence platform, because it helps in, you know, curating your first party data, also in an appropriate set of trusted foundation. You know, we have our own proprietary data where we allocate kind of, when we call them as z IDs, you know, for an appropriate account and individual. So you're not see at any given time, you know, what account Do you have, you know, which are the one net new contacts has just come in? What do you already have in the foundation? Who are anonymous? What do you do with that, since basically, a nice kind of data decision kind of a platform where you can play around with tagging and data quality and, you know, kind of leveraging this data into like, activating, because one other thing was, you know, once you have this unified data, what do you do with it? So, we saw all of this. And that's why we call it as customer intelligence, because it enables insights and identity and intent all at the same time.

Mike: And it sounds like to do this, you're pulling data from an awful lot of different sources, is that right?

Abhi: Yeah, yeah. So it has a pre build, you know, set of connectors and integration with numerous SaaS applications, you know, where could be a CRM, marketing automation, your customer success, customer support desk, you know, apps, things like that. But it also helps you unifying your first party data, wouldn't these apps do also, like third party data providers, you know, potentially an Indian provider, potentially, you know, dnb, or, you know, because all these, all these even third party data vendors have, you know, some part of information where you just need two fields and one field, but then their data model is different than what you're maintaining. So, you know, all of this comes down boils down to not at an integration level situation, but actually at an ID level unification. So unification of people, activities and companies. That's what we enable.

Mike: That's interesting. It sounds like, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it sounds like you're saying that one of the issues with a lot of marketing technology as it tries to keep you in, you know, that particular products, little island, whereas what you're trying to do is share that data, so that you've got access to all your data sources at once. Is that, is that really what you're trying to get to? 100%?

Abhi: Yes, we think, you know, point based solution, integration is still like a band aid, and you're just, you still have a lot of blind sight of that individual or activity, which may be happening in a different silo. So how about having it all at one place where you would know that, okay, all my 100,000 accounts, or about 1 million contacts of people? that's what that's what my playground is, you know, and how do I prioritise How do I activate it? How do I segment and activate them into campaign that's good. But anytime any new contact of person comes in, I would have a base foundation to know this is a net new person, which has come in and you know, what, what to do with it. So

Mike: that makes sense. Definitely. I'm interested, you mentioned as well that you create some of your own data with these IDs that you associate to contacts. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what you do there?

Abhi: Yeah, yeah. So when we started, we obviously built in integration framework across these third party vendors of data provider, and then we realise this tremendous challenges there because most of these third party data vendors, data is billed for sales and prospecting, but not for reproducibility or not for GDPR compliance. If I'm, if I'm, if I'm on brand, I'm trying to build my first party data Foundation, you know, can I can I be compliant with GDPR? Can I combine with privacy norms at a global scale with each country? So what if I wanted to enrich my first party data with the third party information, and that's where there's a lot of disconnect, you know, with how some of these third party vendors, has managed, you know, information by, you know, company name could be, you know, they're like, five xylo tax in United State, just because we have five offices, and what somebody else had maybe just the legal name, what legal buying company may not be the company will actually making the purchase, maybe just the name on the invoice. So these kind of challenges were there. So we ended up, you know, started creating our own database, we started by account because there's only a given quantity of, you know, longtail accounts, where everyone is kind of after. So we build a global foundation of accounts curated on our sort of, you know, one basic data model, which could be leveraged for unification for this purpose of enrichment, primarily. And similarly, then we started, you know, getting hold of a lot of public information and, you know, getting the same thing done for like, people graph as well. So it's both for people and companies, we have like curated IDs, we don't sell this data like that, we just use it for identity resolution. This is one of our unique differentiation. And it's a trusted ID resolution, where you're not relying on the any particular one source because these are very curated ideas where we we have, you know, have kind of even gone ahead and manually curated this particular entity that this mic is the same mic, and this is his LinkedIn, and this is better. And so kind of real person and real company kind of when, when it comes to unification and Richmond and resolution you have trust, which one do you know rely with while you're building this foundation?

Mike: That's great. That's, that's incredible. See already adding value by the, I guess, building on the third party data sources as well?

Abhi: Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah. I mean, most of these, like I said, you know, database is great from a sales prospecting. But, you know, they may have 60 million company and like, I know, 300 million people. But if you're an enterprise, a b2b Enterprise, and 95% of revenue is coming in from 200,000 accounts, what would you do with this 60 million accounts of this database, then it's creating a whole grand exercise for you to build a whole capability to extract what you want, which you know, where diving is, in essence, you need agility, you need trust. So we set a wind and, you know, did it all all by ourselves and this in some way, this also helps them at some point in time, they also want to, you know, still leverage some third party vendor like an internet provider, they can still use rz ID as a unique sort of matching point with some of them. So basically, shorten this whole cycle of one year long building capable p, engineering and data and then doing it yourself. losing a lot of time there.

Mike: I make sense. I, I'm interested to know, when people start working with you, what's the the bit of that data puzzle, then they're most missing? Or they really want to get? I mean, what's the is it, you know, contact data enrichment, or are they looking for something like intent data? Or where are people really looking to move to in terms of the next step with their marketing campaigns?

Abhi: Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a great question. So what we have done is as a platform, we have, you know, come up with more sort of modular approach, where we obviously help our clients or new companies, a customer kind of onboard on a crawl, walk run strategy as their programme matures internally. So we have companies who have a marketing automation and CRM, and they just don't have a foundation in place, because they've been trying a lot of integration and past with just putting CRM in the front, and then doing all kinds of system integration. But then they realise that Wait a minute, you know, we don't have a data governance framework. We don't We didn't we we just mark it 200,000 accountants, why not build a foundation.

So we help them start off with building this foundation. In certain scenarios. There's also a low touch module or product, we have call enrichment. Where if you're a marketer, and you may be doing an ABM, but you don't have the relevant contacts for the accounts you're targeting. So you may, you know, you could leverage AI enrich product and, you know, start off with his maybe MLS, then how do I get to the decision making unit here, or based on that decision making unit of the product I'm selling, what would be your relevant contacts, you know, this, the contacts I have. So, you know, we help with that intelligence is also as kind of crawl walk run strategy.

And then there is this full blown, you know, kind of what we call CDP platform, which, which has insights module, a whole data operations suite. Because, you know, with b2b marketers, or, you know, lists, and XML files are not going away, even if you have, and foundation bill, you know, you you're doing a lot of digital events, and you're getting a lot of csvs floating around. And every campaign, you you got to, you know, do a lot of scrubbing work, we have a lot of, we have our UI or app, which helps them in kind of running these XML files and kind of dedupe and merging with some of the existing foundation data, help them scrub it in a more automated way. So they save tonnes of hours of work. And, you know, nowadays, when specificly marketing is not so fully resourced, with marketing operations, there's an emerging, you know, new revenue kid on the block, but they're not, you know, you know, kind of resource appropriately. So we fit in pretty well, because we, we help them do this data management governance with, you know, sort of how marketing and sales can understand and connect, instead of like, building an IP capability or building a data science capability. And, you know, cm, a lifecycle is 14 to 16 months, you know, they need to still perform quarter and quarter. So we help them, you know, in kind of making this kind of short-circuited and getting towards more revenue marketing or revenue, customer experience or that kind of thing.

Mike: Perfect. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, in terms of data sources, you know, obviously, one of the hot areas at the moment is intent data with, you know, companies offering different types of intent data how, how do you see that changing marketing as we go forward?

Abhi: Yeah, I think intent data is one of the it's been pretty good buzzword for quite some quite many years. Now. I look at it slightly differently. I look at a lot of these third party data vendors as intent signal providers, which is basically just a piece of puzzle, not the entirety. So what do you and and don't take me wrong, there's tremendous value in the signal. But how are you utilising that signal with your first party data is the make and break situation. So we have seen some of our clients, you know, who has built a foundation with us, they leverage these third party intent provider. And we have some partnerships as well. You know, somebody like bombora, tech, Darian, and all that, where you could help, you know, we can help them kind of unify this third party signal with the accounts and with the first party foundation they care for. And that's where the real magic happens because you have this first party engagement data. And then you have third party intent signal combined, which this in that combined form helps you with a con prioritisation, conduct prioritisation, you know, activating appropriate content in the buyers journey, you know, things like that. So, you know, Where, where, what's trending, you know, what, what, in a kind of, in a combined way worse than looking at it in a sort of silo thing, and then, you know, going into that rabbit hole of chasing and then you realising, well, this is just a research exercise with this intense signal. So,

Mike: yeah, absolutely. That's it. It's really interesting. So I think there's, there's still a lot of hype around intent data, but a lot of people are failing to really get the benefit. I think, you know, what you seem to be saying is that actually in send data on its own is not going to solve the problem. You've got to combine it with other data, particularly your own first party data. Is that right?

Abhi: Absolutely. No, absolutely. Thanks for that summary.

Mike: So I'm interested, I mean, the product sounds incredibly powerful. And obviously, it's connecting to, to, you know, a large range of pretty expensive enterprise tools. I mean, what sort of company buys into xyla? tech? Is it really only the largest enterprises that can afford this sort of technology?

Abhi: Well, we have, yeah, I mean, we have from the large enterprise, of course, is our sort of prime focus, but we were seeing increasingly a lot of like mid market, upper mid market companies as well. Companies mostly was getting mature with their marketing operations capability, or their customer success, or customer experience, teams, or the larger bit of audience were, we were our fitment is pretty spot on. Companies are also kind of trying to now focus on product intelligence. And they, they, they want to, you know, focus on retention, and cross sell upsell. And, you know, we're seeing a lot that's happening. And that's driving a lot of need for somebody like us. But yeah, it's mostly around the mid market to enterprise where they have a mature sales operations team and a marketing operations team. And, you know, they want to integrate them well, or they have a mature customer experience team, or, you know, somebody who's just starting, you know, in this pandemic, situation has accelerated a lot of those companies as well, we literally had very less kind of maturity around customer success or marketing ops has been reeling around. So we're seeing pretty good excitement in this mid market space as well.

Mike: Interesting, I was going to ask you about the the impact of the pandemic, actually, because, presumably, that's, that's something where, you know, you can really help because you're, you're very much bridging that gap between marketing and sales and with sales, not able to go out and visit customers, it seems like, you know, sila tech would provide a great opportunity to level up your your marketing activities to drive more sales ultimately.

Abhi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Not just that we're seeing a lot of, you know, because of this whole job market, changes going on, and company and doing a lot of reorge a lot of these contact information is getting stale. And, you know, companies are more and more getting very account driven. And, you know, ICP driven, ABM is a big, their company is doubling down on that. And, you know, they were trying out with just 100 accounts for ABM, and you know, that they are going out for a global marketing operation style, kind of at a volume. So we're seeing a lot of that, we, we also see that it's not going to go back to where it was, I don't see that's gonna happen pretty soon, even with the medicine out and everything. And but what what has helped in the sort of mindset changes that companies have now, you know, kind of switching gears from a spray and pray marketing approach, where basically, you know, there used to get all kinds of data by all kinds of third party information, put it down in the campaign, and, you know, spray and pray so, and then see what leads happen, which we're seeing increasingly now companies are adapting the approach of, this is my ICP, I got to have a data governance framework, I didn't want to invest on you know, sales and marketing alignment. I want to activate the b2b customer experience kind of lifecycle, digital lifecycle, like some of our clients says, that's, that's some of these are kind of key projects, or this is going pretty mainstream in coming 2021 I see this is going more and more with the, with the with the majority companies.

Mike: That's great. I mean, as someone who used to be an engineer, I love the fact that marketing is becoming much more focused on process rather than, as you say, just on spray and pray or, or perhaps opinions of, you know, what looks good on paper.

Abhi: Yeah, ya know, it, it is. It has come a long way. I think earlier, the focus of marketing was, you know, of course, like you said, you know, creativity content, things like that. Then I saw We all saw that, you know, off democratisation of integrations with iPads, and all kinds of these traditional cdp's, that all kinds of like, Oh, I want to unify, I want to integrate this system and that system. So that became a commoditized. So now you have the data, but you don't know what to do with it. You know, so that's where, you know, these, these kind of more what we call customer intelligence come in place where you, where you have some sort of a governance framework, you know, what this contact is and how it is relevant to me at what time. So it's kind of getting mature from where it started off, it's come a long way. But I'm pretty, pretty psyched and excited about the future and coming here with, you know, more than marketing and revenue marketing and in the works.

Mike: Brilliant. So I'm interested, if anybody's listening, and they're wondering, you know, whether it's right for them, or whether they should start looking into it, what's normally the thing that drives people to come and look at the product, is it the fact they're encountering problems, the fact they're being pushed to deliver better results? Is it just that they've got so many different data sources, they can't integrate, you know, what's driving people to come to the product?

Abhi: I mean, I think the outcome are, for, you know, everyone is kind of working for growth. So if you're a growth driven team, or growth driven marketing team, or growth driven business, you know, and you're, like, struggling with resources around, can't afford a whole CEO of marketing ops centre, and, you know, buy tonnes of data tools, and they want to spend the whole year and kind of building that team and want to get your quarter going, because, you know, retention is getting more and more critical in the b2b world. And so is your customer relationship, you know, customer has been unprecedentedly more demanding and, you know, in because in our subconscious, we still we're all human to human right. So we're still using Netflix, and we're still using Amazon. And, you know, if I'm, if I'm signing up a check a million dollar for my technology provider, I expect bare minimum, I expect that these new new guys and new new account reps keep coming at least recognise me enough that who I am and what I've been doing, and what's my relationship with my brand, your brand. So I think all of this is, is kind of, you know, reeling to the fact that we need to change our mindset quite a bit also with just not looking at as a campaign white policy, but also like, how do I make my business more customer centric when it comes to b2b and, you know, focus on more proactive work then sort of reactive, you know, firefighting daily. So things like that.

Mike: Excellent. And in terms of finding out more is the best place to go to go to the sollatek website.

Abhi: Yeah, that's, that's a good starting point. I would say we have a, you know, the same usual contact form there. But you know, my email id is, I'll be DOD yada, which is a bhi DOD ya da ve at xyla, tech.com. Feel free to write me in now. I'll help you connect with the right person help, you know, what are the unique thing about our businesses? We're all we're a solid team, very passionate trying to make a difference in the b2b customer intelligence world. So we're all pretty passionately committed in try to work with our clients is making them win. That's, that's my personal motive to so happy to help.

Mike: Wow, that's great. So people can contact the founder and the CTO directly if they want information. That's, that's definitely a direct route. Thank you.

Abhi: Absolutely. Yeah.

Mike: I mean, it's been fast that he's been really good. I mean, hopefully, some of our clients and our other listeners will be in contact with you in the future. I really appreciate your time. It's been a great interview. Thank you very much.

Abhi: No, thank you. It was, it was great. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Mike: Thank you.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.